Big Iron Shootout 2009

I blame global warning. That said, we are Canadians and as such we will pursue dangerous endeavors.

Would you rather die living or live dying?

Syncro

I agree Syncro - I engage in lots of recreational activities that are hardly risk-free.

I wasn't there and I don't know exactly what the snow conditions were where they were holding their event, but there were lots of locals participating who know the avalanche risks pretty well.

I can just hope for the best for the missing at this point.

Kevin

I have some friends that go every year. Godspeed indeed.

Syncro

I'm sure we'll be hearing the calls for banning snowmobiles again as the MSM vultures swoop in on this tragedy.

"Back country sledding" ha ha why not just call it "Avalanche baiting" and give prizes for those who make it back.

The standard reaction to any tragedy is to apply blame.....whether it be buildings that fail in an earthquake or poorly maintained levees.
As was noted, the locals were in attendance, knew the risk, and accepted that risk.
Every once in a while a bungie-jumper goes splat.....somebody's chute fails......a race-car (or luge) hits a wall....
Getting outa bed has it's risks......

Sasquatch

Incidentally, the leading cause of death is life.

Syncro

Seems there will always be people who choose to seek thrills in risky or extreme ways; all I ask is that they pay for their rescue or join volunteer rescue brigades.

dollops

Thrills in safe and mundane ways just are not the same.

Syncro

Agreed Synchro, but reference Darwin Awards.

If you want to take foolish risks with death, be my guest, but take out enough insurance to pay for the body recovery, I don't want to spend my hard-earned tax dollars on it.

OD on all the adrenaline you want, Syncro, but do it on your dime, not mine.

Same as Enkidu.. Wanna push the envelope, great, but do it on your own dime. When s--t happens don't come crying to big momma to save your sorry butts. In the old days, you took your chances in the bush and rescue wasn't guaranteed nor expected. Now any clown with a sled can charge off half corked in the bush and expect a helicopter pickup if s--t hits the fan. Mandatory insurance for all backcountry riders might be the only cure.

To all the f&#$ nuts making comments about money and body recovery. The industry generates a lot of revenue in BC and all accross Canada. So when stuff like this happens it is being paid for out of that tax base created by that industry. In the end sledders have paid for it. MOre importantly though you dumb a$$es don't realize that if I break my sled in the back country the helicopter rides are paid for by me to haul my crap out of their. Go to Hell.

Enkidu- FYI, almost all the rescue teams are volunteers, and most events are insured. Really, if you want to start limiting people from protection, based on lifestyle, you better do a careful assessment of your own lifestyle.

My nephew has been doing this sort of thing since he was 10 years old. He and his friends have set the bar on a couple of uncharted routes, south of Grande Prairie. When he isn't doing it for fun, he's getting paid to blaze new trails, as an oilfield surveyor. His vast experience gives him and edge, over the weekend warriors who died yesterday.

I spent 15 years traveling the back country, for a living. A whole lot of people do dangerous work, day in and day out. Their numbers are huge, compared to the few who take part in these weekend events. I hope that Enkidu isn't suggesting all those people don't deserve a safety net. If that's how he wants to play, I can suggest a few good places to gather firewood.

Few of us would deny extreme sports enthusiasts the right to go out and have fun. We just don't think that they should selfishly expect Search and Rescue and tax dollars to bail them out time after time. Kiss My XXX, tourist tax dollars are not your private slush fund.

Dollops

How does evolutionary doctrine go again?

Syncro

Enkido

When did your dime get involved?

Syncro

Simple, Synchro. When the survivors tire of saving the foolhardy's axx the ax falls.

Okay, I took the bait, and clicked on dollops' link. It looks to me like you're making a living, off all these "selfish" sports enthusiasts. Just remember, trying to advertise, and preach, at the same time, could have consequences. All those selfish sports enthusiasts might spend their money somewhere else.

Who said anybody wanted to be saved?

Syncro

dp
Thanks for the plug. Y'all come.

It wasn't a plug, grease monkey. Think of it as more of an invitation to a boycott.

Just doesn't seem to be enough Darwin Awards for fools like this.

It's too bad when people die without a reason but I have no sympathy for anyone who plays Russian Roulette with a loaded gun (ie: avalanche). Just as I have no sympathy for the drunk who hits the wall. They know the risks. My sympathy goes to the innocents they inadvertantly take with them.
In my business I deal with a lot of sledders. After the days ride they are mostly the best people that anyone could ask to meet but put them on a sled and the brains of many of them turn to crap.
You wanna hear the tune, you pay the piper!!

That looks like a blast of fun. I can understand why they do that on mountains, although I've been in minor accidents each and every time I've been on a moto sled... in Saskatchewan! uff. still I didn't see any part of these guys asking to be saved by the government or to have helicopters on stand-by and the notion of mandatory insurance goes against the spirit of the games... There's an element here that seems to be saying, "we want less of the city type / government controls, and please butt out of my ying-yang".

Thanks Jaeger and understood completely Syncodox.

enkidu @ 1:59, you beat me to it. Who's covering the cost of the search and rescue operation when things go bad? I feel the same way about these stunt artists, like the idiots that try to fly around the world in balloons or cross the Atlantic in some flimsy craft of some sort. Let them pay for it, and I'll be fine with it.

Those of you who equate this to the Darwin Awards have probably never walked a 6 inch I-Beam. On the other hand I will bet you work in a highrise.

Syncro

From the early reports it sounds like the overwhelming majority of the rescues were done by other participants on the scene at the time.

I realize activities like hill-climbing and high-marking a steep mountain slope aren't everyone's cup of tea, but every one of us engages in some risk-taking in our lives.

Even if the biggest risk some of you take is to risk obesity and a heart attack by sitting on the couch all day, emergency services will be there for you when your day comes.

That's right Kevin. These people are the least likely to cry for help, and the most likely to help when one of them gets into trouble. All this complaining about them wasting tax dollars is in poor taste, and poorly researched. I have yet to see anyone come up with numbers, regarding the cost of rescuing snowmobilers. Instead, I hear a lot of unfounded accusations, before the bodies are even cold.

I'd wager there are more dollars spent rescuing cross-country skiers, and hikers, than snowmobilers. Sledheads tend to research their outings, travel in groups, and support each other. They also spend a lot of money in those resort areas. They stimulate the national economy, much more than most visitors to recreation areas. When there's a tragedy, it should be looked upon as just that, a tragedy.

Another thing to consider, is the comparative risk to innocent bystanders, vs other hobbies. When a bunch of guys jump onto motorcycles, and head for Sturgis, they're taking just as big a risk as a sledhead heading for the mountains. The difference is, those motorcycles put other motorists at risk, as well. Traffic accidents are a big drain on taxpayers too. And, really, is enjoying a bike ride any different than enjoying a snowmobile ride?

Darwin Awards are certainly warranted for those whose ignore High Avalanche warnings, then are amazed when an avalanche occurs.

However, I did not realize that the RCMP search-and-rescue teams were pure volunteers...I admire the Mounties even more.

Darwin awards indeed. Too much power and too little knowledge will get people killed every time. It's sad, but too many numskulls ride super sleds in dangerous situations and have no idea whatsoever about the hazards involved. Same thing every year, people die, it's sad, but so it goes.

So mismanagement of horse power on a sled is different than mismanaging a car. Right?

Syncro

Not quite, syncro. With a car, there's more opportunity to kill others. If you're in the right place, at the right time, you might even take out a school bus, full of kids. Think of the poor taxpayer if that should happen.

I didn't see a lot of cars at the Big-Iron shootout, but I guess if you did mismanage a car in the same circumstances, it wouldn't be much different.

(quote) Those of you who equate this to the Darwin Awards have probably never walked a 6 inch I-Beam. On the other hand I will bet you work in a highrise.

Syncro
(unquote)
I have done my share of dangerous jobs having spent a good portion of my life as a logger using a chain-saw. I have also worked worked with damned little under me but a concrete floor 30 feet below. I really would have to give some credence to the idea of Darwin Awards. Working a dangerous job is entirely different than risking your life for no good reason. These adrenaline junkies are all about themselves and no-one else. Those that don't survive their adrenaline trip leave wives, children, parents and other family members to deal with the results of their foolishness, or is it selfishness. I'm talking about any sport that puts your life at serious risk "just for the fun of it".

Hall said he was blue and cold by the time his fellow riders were able to dig him free from under the snow.

Hall said it was difficult facing his wife after insisting again and again that their young son was safe with him while they were both out on the snow.

But the experience won't dampen his enthusiasm for the sport.

"I have no regrets at all," he said. "When you're extreme riders it happens to all of us."

What Marvin said....these people do not even care about their own families as long as they are 'having fun'. Sounds like a Liberal hobby to me.

Sorry but don't have too much sympathy. The avalanche warnings were out all week. If you then choose to take the risk the results shouldn't be too surpirising. I too take part in risky endeavors but try to minimize the risk I put myself into. That said, I accept the risk and will pay the price if the worst should come to pass. This does seem to be a yearly occurrence.

My point...and let me be clear...is that life itself is inherently dangerous..always has been always will be.

Risk management kids.

As far as the selfish bit goes...I guess I miss the feminine side of this.

Syncro

Hey Lew, I think you are taking my words out of context. There are many ways to have fun without putting your life at "serious" risk. I don't know if the fellow you are talking about had his young son with him at the time but if he had and his son would have died in the avalalanche he would have had a lot tougher time facing his wife. Would the child have been what is called collateral damage?
And, yes, life is inherently dangerous. That fellow coming down the highway toward you, is he drunk or is he going to use you to assist in his own suicide? You never know when your number will come up but why push it?
This is turning into "an extended debate" so I am done with it.
All I can say is my sympathy is with the families of the victims. Hopefully someone will learn something from this tragedy.

Marvin, I did not mean to take your words out of context. There is no tragedy here, other than the selfish people who wish to risk their families well-being to have their thrills. It sucks to have stupid parents as a child, but it happens all the time. And it pays very well here in Canada.

"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

Death: Nature's way of telling you to Slow Down!

These snowmobilers knew there were serious risks of avalanches but chose to defy the odds. We cannot protect people from their own folly as they defy death in the name of sport. But we can demand of people who knowingly take such risks that they post bonds to cover the cost of rescuing them or recovering their bodies when things go sideways.

Big Iron is an excellent display of thrill, mastery, power and excitement. I commend the organizers for keeping it going year after year, although the tragedy this year will likely mean added trepidation next year.

All forms of thrill and entertainment off the beat (read controlled) track carry an increased degree of risk. That's part and parcel of why humans continue to push the limits and seek the adventure.

Without the ability to accept risk, push the limits and experience events, like Big Iron, we are nothing but docile, subdued, risk-averse sheeple.

Whenever these sorts of tragedies occur my fear is the overbearing arm of the State coming in to proscribe the activity. To me, that is to be feared more than nature.

Condolences to the families of the lost.

"...my fear is the overbearing arm of the State coming in to proscribe the activity..." As long as the "state" is there to rescue their sorry a**es, right? It was an unsanctioned event in an area where avalanche warnings were posted. Pure, unadulterated foolishness.

Mark Peters @ 11:49, you and several others here seem to have missed the point. I have no problem with people wanting to live on the wild side, but that is their choice and along with that choice should come responsibility for the consequences.

The rescue effort involved not just volunteers, but paid police forces, paid ambulance drivers and attendees, paid helicopter pilots, and paid hospital staff, not to mention other overhead costs associated with all those services, such as fuel and maintenance.

If the risk takers want the thrills, they should be prepared to pay those costs, and in the event that they are dead, then they should be prepared to assign the responsibility for cost recovery to someone else, such as a family member or a friend.

At least there is a benefit to society as a whole when risks are taken at work, but then again, there are also many regulations in place that have to be followed as well that minimize risk in the workplace.

In the case of this avalanche, authorities had warned against using that particular slope, and the idiots who did not heed that warning are in the same boat as an employer or employee who flouts Workman's Comp regulations.

News reports are saying that some participants had brought their children with them - kids as young as seven years old.
If you want to engage in extremely risky activities and risk your life, that is your prerogative - but what gives you the right to be that cavalier with your young child's life?

remember 50% of the people are dumber than average, this just temporarily moved the line.

for all of half a second , at 350000 births per day

Sorry, Lew! I misread your post. I now see that you were agreeing with me. I think that these children that Barbara was talking about represent the "innocents" I mentioned in my first post. My feeling about taking children on such dangerous undertakings? These parents should be charged with willfully endangering the life of a minor. (I realize this statement will bring a storm of protest on this old, grey head but, so be it!)
Yes, Syncro, maybe that is my "feminine" side(read: wimpy) coming out but at least my children are still alive and healthy.

Jackmac -- This foolishness of which you speak occurs all the time across this nation. Shall we proscribe all "unsanctioned" events? Cut off rescue services if an activity is not on the "safe" list? And who keeps said list? Do we need the State to sanction everything we do? Do you not desire and cherish FREEDOM, man?

Louise -- I am agreeable to offloading health care and rescue costs to those who "live on the wild side" as long as you're agreeable to swing your proverbial mantle a lot wider than this group of snowmobile enthusiasts.

If risky behaviour is our measure then we must begin to penalize: Over-drinkers. Over-eaters. Fast-food junkies. The morbidly obese. Mountain climbers. Whitewater rafters. Surfers. Drag racers. Smokers. Hikers. Philanthropists (think Stephen Fossett). Off-road bikers.

These flow off the top of my head, and these are just sport or enthusiast areas. What about the insanely risky trades? You want king crab fisherman to pay for their rescue when they land in the icy sea? What about oil rig workers, like those who perished off Newfoundland just over a year ago?

How and where are you going to draw the line with your pay-for-taking-the-risk rule?