Apropos

Curious. Why is "Lebanon" in quotation marks? Cause it's been annexed by Syria?

Sorry, I don't take subliminal clues very well. Especially in the morning.

LOL!

I can personally vouch for #s1 and 2:

After the magnitude 7.4-on-the-Richter-Scale quake I was in the middle of, reps from the U.N. arrived at the airport with their blue armbands and proceeded to ... be nearby doing nothing. There was so much corruption on the part of the government-sponsored "emergency aid," you could see it, touch it, and smell it. The U.N. did nothing about it, but paraded around the airport (I don't think they ever inspected the city) like the cock of the walk, pretending they were there to save the day.

And, guess who showed up to do all the heavy lifting? Yup, the Yanks.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Corruption by any other name stinks.

It's in quotes because that part of Lebanon is now in the hands of Iran.

I was about to post "or Iran", but you beat me to it. Really, I was. :p

emailed to me yesterday by a good friend...this would equally apply to the UN.

"New Element Discovered, to Be Included on the Periodic Table:

The Nuclear Physics Department at the University of Ottawa has discovered the heaviest element yet known to science. The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons. Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert; however, it can be detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.

Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 - 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium's mass will actually increase over time, since each re-organization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration.

This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.

When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium, an element that radiates just as much energy as Governmentium since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons."

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North"

Kate, keep your head down.

Right - that was one of my key points in my argument about Israel-Palestine. Iran's imperialist agenda in the ME.

Iran, which is Persian and not Arab, has every intention of controlling the Arab states in the ME. That is a key reason why I maintain that, yes, Palestine should be a sovereign state, but, operating within a binary infrastructure that economically embeds it with Israel. Palestine on its own would be swallowed in a nanosecond by Iran and Iran would use that base not merely against Israel but against Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

In fact, if a sovereign Palestine existed, embedded within that of Israel, this 'dyad' would be a strong counterfoil of the Arab peoples against Iran. After all, at the moment, you have Iran interferring in Iraq, and Iraq, though an increasingly determined democracy, is not strong enough to confront Iran. Iran is aligned with Syria, it's swallowing Lebanon and has its eyes on Jordan and the W. Bank.

Saudi Arabia. Egypt, Jordan, refuse to confront Iran directly though they are all apprehensive about it. But a 'dyad' of Israel-Palestine could actually bring Saudi Arabia alongside (Egypt and Jordan already recognize the state of Israel).

As for the UN, it's so corrupt that it's fit only for someone like Obama.

Hans Rupprecht at March 13, 2010 12:06 PM

Hans! That was one of the funniest things I have read in 2010! My family and I just had a true gut laugh, especially the my 12 yr.old son!!!

Nice summery of the UN Hans!

ET
That Palestine/Isreal dyad has some chance of adoption by isreal but reality is that any such entity would rapidly disolve into a genocidal mess as the Pali's exploit the opportunity to achieve their long declared ideological goal.
I recall when the Bosnian troubles reerupted years back.....a Bosnian Serb friend challenged me as my knowledge of the situation.
My response was brief.....
"This is happening because you forgot what it was like....and it will end when you remember."
Bosnians....Serb or Moslem are millenia ahead of Palestinians.....

sasquatch - well, we'll just have to 'agree to disagree' - including calling any people by a derogatory name (Pali).

I happen to totally disagree with you on the genocidal mess and 'ideological goal' of the Palestinians. I think such exists in far stronger form among the settlers and orthodox, and they are a powerful force in Israel. However, it is a fact that both Palestinians and Israelis can and do work constructively together, therefore, I strongly reject your opinion.

I also am sceptical about Israel adopting my suggestion of a dyadic state made up of two sovereign states that are economically and legally embedded with each other. Such a political format is not simple but complex, and, above all, Israel won't give up the W. Bank.

And after all, how can the Palestinians have a state when Israel has settled all of its land base?

Meanwhile, the agenda of Iran is extremely serious; it has an imperial agenda, and it is steadily achieving this goal. It moves by the backdoor, moving in to Syria and Lebanon, moving in to Hamas and Hezbollah, interfering in Iraq. And it moves by the front door - laughing at Obama's spineless pompous talk - as Iran develops nuclear weapons right under his rhetorical nose.

My view is that it is Israel's control of the W. Bank that is preventing Iran's further actions in the ME, but I think this constraint on Iran would be much, much stronger, if that W. Bank operated as an Arab State embedded with Israel. The two together might motivate the other Arab States to confront Iran and would tip the balance from religious ideology to economic alignment.

ET: "Palestine on its own would be swallowed in a nanosecond by Iran and Iran would use that base not merely against Israel but against Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt."
==========================
Tell that the Shillary and Biden. They're trying real hard to f*ck up the Middle East, but they can't see beyond their noses.

So Kate, I'm guessing you're also getting a clear appreciation of why the Israelis are so reluctant to return the Golan heights to the Syrians. I knew they had a commanding view, but I didn't know quite how commanding until I was up there. Anything surrounding the Sea of Galilee is completely at the mercy of artillery placed on the Golan heights, let alone its forward slopes. The kibbutz we stayed at had, in fact, been shelled from the plateau during the six day war.
Have you had a chance to visit Nazareth and Capernaum?
Such a pretty area, so much political tension!

Hans, that was priceless!

Mmmm.... cheesy fries....

Indeed, DrD. I haven't been there but I've studied the topography. But as you say, there's nothing like standing there and getting the existential danger.

Clearly there's absolutely no feasibility for TWO states and the ideal solution would be a SINGLE bi-national state, as ET euphoricizes (sic). BUT, this could only work if both terrorist groups -- the good terrorists Fatah (which the US aids, abets, and arms whilst fighting the "war on terror") and the bad terrorists, Hamas, were destroyed root and branch. Until this happens followed by a normalization of "Palestinian" society including the school system and popular media allowing the first seedlings of a possible Palestinian Arab civil society to emerge, there is zero prospect of such a bi-national state. Israel could, but the Arabs can't, while under the thumbs of KGB-created gangster-terrorist gangs devoted solely to the destruction of Israel and Jews and who actually profit handsomely from a continuation of the conflict.

Moreoever, to sell the idea of a bi-national state you would have to provide examples of how well certain minority groups have fared in Arab-Muslim and Persian lands. You'd have to ask, 'what happened to all the Christians and Jews in Muslim lands; why were 500 Christians just massacred in Nigeria; why are the Copts in Egypt under such pressure?'

We do know that the 1.5 million Arab minority in Israel has flourished, are members of the Knesset, are allowed to have mosques and such. And we know that Israel bends over backwards to avoid civilian casualties (even phoning ahead!) and even includes enemy terrorists in medical triage operations.

And we know that the Arab world is rife with rumours of Israel's organ-harvesting in Haiti!

ET...I suggest you quit wasting Kate's BW and go live with your Pali friends.I have served time in both the Golan and the Sinai.Until you have been there,keep your armchair appraisment yap shut.People are dying from your palis launching Katushka missles etc.Until you have held a dying child/mother/father in your arms from a cowardly attack by the Palis,and yes,a return attack from the Israels,then come talk to me.The Palistinians are NOT a nation or country,they are UN/British sanctioned terrorists,plain and simple.
For your info...more Arabs are residents of, and work in Israel,they any other ME country.On second thought,maybe you should try Saudi.The stoning of women should suit you just fine.And you could apply your piling it higher and deeper degree to how it is their tribalism that makes it right.Dumb.

I took a few photos, but with my film camera so they'll have to wait to be posted until I'm home a few days.

just thinkin - I'll stop my comments, not due to your childish insults, but when Kate asks me to. Until then, it's called 'freedom of thought and expression'.

Furthermore, the fact that you've been there (and I won't say whether or not I have) is not relevant. Anecdotal experience isn't also valid experience. That's called 'identity politics' and I'm opposed to using such as a source of knowledge.

Plus, I suggest that your knowledge of the reality of the interaction between the settlers and the Palestinians is biased and uninformed.
I suggest you read Peace Now, and Haaretz on a search for 'settler violence' for a few details about how 'peaceful' the settlers are towards the local Palestinians.

Me no dhimmi - your linear outline of 'we must do this first and then this second' is not feasible. It is impossible to 'eliminate' as you suggest, the extreme ideology driving Hamas, just as it is impossible to eliminate the same extreme ideology driving the settlers and the orthodox. And, the same ideology driving separatism here in Quebec. You cannot totally 'cleanse' a society of its peripheral ideologies; all you can do is marginalize their power. After all, how many years has the Jacobite agenda been around to restore the Stuarts in England?

Change includes not merely the educational system in Palestine but also in Israel! But you can't do this in a linear fashion of 'first this must be fully accomplished..then this'. It has to be done in a 'bricolage' fashion, of steps that link, 'sideways' to other steps, some planned, some not planned..over time.

The Arab minority in Israel complains of discrimination - this is well known, and if you follow the reports, you'd admit this. Discrimination in permits to build, in work permits, etc.

Furthermore, to claim that 'because the Arab States discriminate against minorities (and they do), THEN, Palestine will also discriminate against minorities - is an illogical statement. The first premise does not empirically determine the second, unless you are biased.

My suggestion of a 'binary state' of two politically sovereign states that are economically and legally embedded seems to me, the only rational answer to the problems. What problems?

There is the ideological and economic morass of the Muslim states, which remain dictatorial and theorcratic and above all, tribal, and thus, reject the necessity of allowing their population to function as a middle class, i.e., with political and economic power. These states, both Arab and Persian do not want to see a Muslim democracy, i.e. a state that empowers a middle class, in their midst.

There is the Muslim use of Islam, as 'Islamism', as a tool to prevent their moving out of tribalism and into democracy. Islam on its own and with the hadiths is less a religion than social and political mode of life - a tribal and non-industrial and anti-individual, anti-reason, mode of life. The addition of militancy to it, moving it into fascism, has to be confronted and rejected.

The movement of Iraq into democracy is vital in 'diffusing' this into other states. Obama made a serious, serious error in refusing to openly support the Iranian people's recent demonstrations for democracy. That was so monumentally stupid - it's beyond words. Also, his enabling Iran to obtain nuclear weapons - another monumental error.

Iran is the key, the major, the most serious problem in the ME, for it has imperialist ambitions. It is behind the fascist attacks in Israel, in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon and elsewhere.

Israel, as I've said, will not give up the W. Bank for economic and ideological reasons. After all, its constant settlements effectively mean there is no land for such a state! BUT, it won't annex it either because it doesn't want the Muslim population in its population ratio!

Therefore, my view is that it has to set up a 'two-headed' state, both heads democratic with one economic body, so to speak. I think that this will be a powerful tool in support of democracy in the Muslim ME, and a key tool in confronting Iran. To see that such an entity can exist, Muslims and Israelis working together - and they already can and do - but in a state situation - would 'take the wind out of the sails' of Iran's agenda.

You can't negotiate with parties who give the destruction of Israel place of prominence in their charters. Neither the PLO nor Hamas have rescinded these genocidal clauses.

I don't at all suggest you can destroy this evil Islamist ideology but with a united world understanding, it could be disinvited -- exiled --from Palestine just as it was foolishly invited in to Israel by utopian Israeli leftists as the "legitimate representative" of an invented people when they weren't. Arafat wasn't even a "Palestinian" -- he was Egyptian.

Linear? Well, as mentioned the best Arab human rights regime on the planet is in Israel proper. Israel in a linear format has accomplished this allowing 1.5 million Arabs to flourish in Israel proper -- to have full rights of citizenship.

The "settlers" may be "extreme" orthodox fundamentalists -- and as distasteful to me as to you -- but they do not seek the mass murder of Arabs -- only the right to live on land they have as much right to live on as do Arab muslims. Clearly, with about 50 million Muslims now reverse colonizing Europe, this shouldn't be too much to ask. You have to laugh at the anti-Zionist Israel-is-an-apartheid-nation meme, when at the same time no Jew is supposed to be allowed to live in Judea or Samaria, the historic Jewish heartland.

Finally, as to the argument against Israel being a country built on a religious basis, Iraq's constitution is based on shari'a law. And Pakistan was built on a religious basis too -- a refuge for Indian Muslims?

Add also this point --

Cold weather is weather. Warm weather is climate change.

Funny how ET interprets and lables disagreement as "childish insult" which IS AN INSULT.
Then rejects one-the-ground observation as "anecdotal".....as if quoting lefy anti-semitism is objective....what come next...The "protocols...."??

"Furthermore, to claim that 'because the Arab States discriminate against minorities (and they do), THEN, Palestine will also discriminate against minorities - is an illogical statement. The first premise does not empirically determine the second, unless you are biased."

This is plain ungalvanized sophistry.....poor quality sophistry at that.
It is an objective conclusion that promoting a one state solution is advocatin/ordaining genocide.

Then using the term "pali" is no more dorogatory than "GYPO" for Eygptian.....or "nip" for Japanese (Nipon---their word).

Where I come from...I take folks at their word. When they (islamist Hamas etc) state their ambition/goal is to kill/exterminate an identifiable group (Jews)is is not unreasonable to believe them.
This in spite of an arab tendancy for hyperbole---eg "mother of all battles".

mnd, thanks for continuing to point out the truth.

ET, you are proposing some kind of eutopia. Yes crazy settlers do crazy things, but I'm pretty sure Ha'aretz reports how they are prosecuted in Israeli courts of law - not hailed as heros.

I'm not sure what you mean - "Israel has settled all it's land base". Have you seen the Judaen desert, have you seen the westbank? I realize this is anecdotal, but from what I saw some 200000 or so Jews were not covering the entire westbank. Unless you mean Tel Aviv and areas west of the westbank.

I have also been up to the Golan and of course, as any citizen would want of its government, Israel must hold on to the Golan to protect itself

sasquatch;

On another thread about a week ago dealing with the same subject, ET demonstrated that she is a credulous individual when it comes to any accusation levelled against Israel.

Worse than that, when she couldn't come up with a credible source for the libel she was trying to pass off, stuck to it like a starving dog with a bone in its teeth.

I had great respect for ET up to that point. I have none now.

Sorry ET, but I have to agree with the others here. About the best one can say about our idea is that it's obscure and difficult to envisage. More to the point, it's pie in the sky idealism.

Way back in 1967 when I was cramming for my grade 12 finals the Six Day War was being waged. That's when I developed an interest in the history of that region. The conflict had simmered and flared up several times already and would do so again and again over the years. Every so often someone would come up with a brilliant idea and predictions of peace were in the headlines, but nada. Nothing happens.

In my ever so humble opinion, peace will come to that region when Arab countries have democracies and a free press but I ain't holding my breath. It would certainly help if the theocracy in Iran were to fall and be replaced by a real democracy, and that, on the other hand, might happen a lot sooner.

Sorry, should be "the best one can say about *your* idea". Stubby fingers.

And one more thing, ET. When you are reading "Peace now", whatever that is (sounds like something Amy Goodman, Truth Out and the Stop the War Inc. types would associate with), so you ask yourself, "What are they not telling me?". They cherry pick. Everything they say could be true but they withhold facts that would put the cherry picked stuff in a whole different light.

Nice list. Real nice.

Louise;

In suggesting that ET should ask herself whenever she reads something, "What are they not telling me?", you are asking for a level of introspection and critical thinking she is incapable of. Don't hold your breath.

How about we start a collection for Kate so she can buy a half-decent digital camera for her next trip?

A Canon T1i or Nikon D5000 might be good choices, as they can do HD video as well as still shots.

Less noise, more signal in this thread please.

Calling people names qualifies as noise.

> Calling people names qualifies as noise.

I call you on PC Bullshet. Calling ET a professional academic qualifies as an insult?

Instead, I believe you are more concerned with the substance of the post, that did not directly say, but only inferred her to be an obnoxiously pompous poster in her responses to others.

Just be more honest with your censorship.

Actually sp, the clue was in my first sentence.

Yah, Less noise, more signal. That does not explain why of the six preceding posts expressing similar points, mine was the only post deleted.

Of course, the censor always has the last word.

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief,

Your research on the most heavy of all elements, The new element, Governmentium (Gv), has one neutron, 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312, I find to be an exact match to my own research, and therefore priceless.

This is a narrow field of study. No other commentors seem willing to venture forth.

Now it is clear why you hold the high office of " Commander in Chief ".

Your standard will be the base from which all future research will be made relative.

Nice work.

What the hell is wrong with a lot of you? Most everyone here agrees with ET 95% of the time. Other than being a little long winded at times I agree with most of what she has to say to, just not this time. Not agreeing with everything one has to say doesn’t qualify them for abuse, just argue your point and act like an adult.

Remember, as had been said many times, this is not a chat line, make your point then go argue with your wife.

Western Canadian is correct.

Posted by: ET at March 13, 2010 1:43 PM

That's a good grip on Iran's agenda. Serious indeed!

When Hezbollah comes into the room, Hamas fades quietly into the corner.

Remember Iran backed, Muqtada Al Sadr and his black suits scooting around in Iraq with Toyota pick-ups, slitting throats and leaving heads by the roadside?

I have not looked into it, but I wonder who the Iranian bombers are in Pakistan?

Investigative reporters will loose some heads there too, no doubt.

Check Steven Vincent.. scroll down a bit past Early Life, Writing Career, to Death and read the two paragraph nutshell there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Vincent

Muqtada again. Goodwill from Iran.

Western Canadian,what you said.

On first glance I thought that poster had "LMAO" in the web site address at the bottom. 'Cause that's what I was doing when I read it, and (especially) when I read the post above about governmentium, although I've seen it or a reasonable facsimile a few times before; it's still funny.

This site isn't Rabble (I hope) but the mindless personal attacks on ET are sure rabble-like. Her solution to the Arab-Israeli problem doesn't sound feasible to me but, hey, she's a scholar, one of the "good guys" and certainly not deserving of ignorant abuse.

ET...we've knocked heads before. I do not agree with your position on the middle east or Israel in particular, but when it comes to you sizing up obama...well I like your posts just fine. I doubt anyone agrees with everyone all the time.

there is the real world, with real world facts

and then there is the emotional world, with emotionally constructed "utopiate" facts

when one is "street smart", one can distinquish betwix the two, on this file (middle east)some in here ain't "street smart"

me no dhimmi - no, the settlers don't have 'as much right' to live in the W. Bank as do Arab Muslims or anyone else. The land is not open to settlement by any and all; it is not legally owned by Israel but is occupied, i.e., it is disputed territory and is, theoretically, a potential base for a Palestinian state.

No-one is saying that 'Jews aren't allowed to live in the W. Bank'; that's a red herring and 'misericordiam' argument. The real debate is over the governmental and political authority of this area. Is it under Israeli sovereignty or Palestinian?

The PLO is recognized by Israel as the official representative of the Palestinian people, something impossible if, as you say, the PLO is committed to the obliteration of Israel. The PLO recognized the state of Israel in 1993.

You say that Israel is 'the best place' for Muslims. Fine. Then, why not simply annex the W. Bank and its people? Israel won't do that because the population demographics would change.

I am not arguing against Israel being built on a religious basis; that's its business. I'm merely acknowledging that since it IS so built, then, this affects the demographic nature of its citizenship rules.

Equally, your attempts to argue that 'there's no such thing as a Palestinian people' is an invalid argument, for one cannot declare that a state can only be 'given' to a people who are an ethnic group since neanderthal times. Kindly remember that nations are not ethnic but political constructs.

sasquatch - well, I consider such terms as 'pali', nip, gypo' rather than the full name of the country, to be insults. You now state that you didn't intend those abbreviations to be derogatory to those people; I'll take you at your word.

Speaking of taking people at their word, I think that your error is to universalize Some words to All words. The settlers and orthodox insist that no Muslim ought to be allowed to live within the state of Israel; that includes the W. Bank. Do you claim that they speak for every Israeli? Equally, not ALL Palestinians seek the destruction of Israel; they simply want to be citizens of their state, on their farms, in their towns. And many work and collaborate with Israelis.

No, it's not sophistry to reject your statement of 'because Arab states discriminate against minorities, then Palestine will...'. I reject it because it is illogical. It's actually committing the logical error of ''undistributed middle clause' (the action of discrimination is the middle clause). It's similar to saying All dogs are animals. All cats are animals. Therefore, all dogs are cats.

Louise, Peace Now - and it is a yuppie name for it, is an Israeli-based organization for the promotion of a Palestinian state. Members are Israeli. They support a two-state solution - and democoracies in the other arab states. Just google the name.

If you check out the site, I don't think that your suggestion of asking 'what are they not telling me' is applicable. It really isn't a propaganda site.

ex-liberal, you are bringing up a red herring. The issue is not 'settlers living in the W. Bank' but the political authority to govern that W. Bank. At the moment, Israel controls the right to build, the roads (denied for use by Palestinians), the water, and so on.

I think that viewing this situation within the narrow perspective of 'ethnic perspectives' is useless; that is, declaring that all arabs are against Jews; or that all Jews are pro-Arab is psychological babble. It's dogma; it won't solve a thing. It's emotionally satisfying to feel rage or devotion for one or the other side but it's a dead end politically and economically and, a disaster for human rights on both sides.

States are not emotional entities but political constructs. Therefore, one has to consider the basic infrastructure of such a political construct. This is the economy, and it includes arable land, water supplies, population demographics, resources etc. I note that when I bring up these issues, no-one comments.

Focusing strictly on these areas, my suggestion is that two-headed hybrid state, with one body.

ET, Would I be completely wrong in saying the Israel/Palestine problem resembles the problem we are having in Caledonia right now with the Indians? I say resembles because obviously the ME is just so much worse.

However in Caledonia we have a relatively small group of criminals, supported by the smuggling and illegal sales of cigarettes and drugs, pursuing entirely mercenary ends in the name of racial sovereignty. They do so from a base in the Six Nations Reserve where the OPP do not have jurisdiction. Their influence is enough to get them quasi-legal status in Six Nations reserve politics. They get a place at the table by showing up to meetings with lots of thugs and guns, basically.

By treating with these men as if they were legitimate the McGuinty government simply consolidates the problem and makes it permanent. It also makes the criminals RICH, and able to repeat this process of intimidation and theft elsewhere. Look for new "land claims" in Brantford soon.

At any rate, the more special treatment they get from the Crown, the more power they amass and the more damage they do.

The way out of this for Ontario it seems to me, is to first crush their income from smuggling, something easier said than done. Then slowly remove sovereign status from reserves, because it is the blocking of normal policing by corruption among reserve officials that allow the criminals to operate in the first place.

Likewise, I can't see how any "two nation" situation in Israel is going to make any positive difference. The two nations are divided purely along racial lines like the Six Nations Reserve and the rest of Ontario. The only reason for having a Palestinian nation is to keep corrupt Palestinian "officials" aka gang leaders from blowing things up as a means to maintaining their gang leader sinecures. You may recall that Mrs. Yasser Arafat has inherited -billions- of dollars from her late husband. Same as Ontario.

Thus it seems to me that the only way forward is to crush the income stream of the terrorist organizations, and reduce the grip they have on the rest of their captive population by stripping away all the special deals and legal niceties they hide behind.

Beat them, in other words. Remove the UN, cut off the smuggling from Egypt and Syria etc., and pretty much shoot any terrorist that sticks his head up. Territoriality is a legal fiction, get rid of it and the problem pretty much goes away.

I don't see the average Palestinian guy caring a damn if Yasser Arafat's corrupt successors get run out of business, he knows they're crooked. Particularly since as you say, food, water, electric power and employment all come from Israel. Same as Six Nations.

Or am I 100% off base? Quite possible, I've never been there.

phantom - that's an interesting comparison but I don't think it's a valid comparison. Not even by a small ratio.

The Caledonia Gang, and they are a criminal gang, are indeed using the invalid arguments of 'racism' etc to bully the utterly spineless McGuinty government. And relying on the inviolate security of a reserve.

I agree with getting rid of reserves, all of them, and the notion of 'Indigeneous Govt' and the whole corrupt Indian Affairs Dept, a megalthic monster that has grown into a concrete monument devoted to itself. And then treating these gangs for the reality of what they are - criminal gangs.

Apart from acknowledging the corruption of Arafat and many in his group, and the corruption of others in all politics (including the Israeli side), I see no comparison at all between the two situations.

What you have, I think, in the I-P situation is one where you have to acknowledge the reality of 'facts' rather than 'fiction'.

You have two religious-ethnic groups living in the same land base, but, each one wants a political state that puts one and only one group in government power. Right away, this moves your proposed state out of a civic structure to an ideological structure. That's a difficult type of nation-state to set up and maintain because it means that you must describe and control your citizens within ideological or ethnic parameters.

Then, you have a set of nations around you that are already ideological constructs based around one ideology BUT they are not democracies, which means, they don't allow power to rest with a middle class. They are tribal; most people don't understand what a tribal political system means; they hear the word 'tribe' and think it means something as trivial as cultural songs and food fests. No.

A tribal political system is one without a middle class where economic and legal authority rests with a hereditary or other authoritarian elite. This is fine in a non-industrial economy; it's disastrous in an industrial economy because the 'machinery' an industrial economy is the free enterprise of a middle class.

These tribal nations are hotbeds of resentment from their people - eg, the recent demonstrations in Iran. The authorities will try to divert this anger against any and all democracies, the West, the US, Israel. Their agenda is to prevent the overthrow of the tribal authority - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, Iran..

These tribal nations, moreover, are industrial parasites. They have not moved their people into being empowered to be industrial economies; instead they have relied on their oil resources - which they don't even have the technological capacity and know-how to extract and process on their own - to buy industrial products (guns, cars, computers). They haven't moved into modern education.

Their ideology, Islam, is a 7th c, tribal perspective that rejects individualism, rejects reason, and rejects other peoples. It is totally unsuited to a modern global and industrial world.

Then, there's Iran, a Persian state, whose current authorities have an imperialist agenda, not just over Israel but over all the other Arab states in the region.

Put all of that together, and you've got a very different situation than the one in Caledonia.

TG: "Muqtada again. Goodwill from Iran."

Make that Muqtada's handlers again.

On a brighter note, Mucky's party is losing in Iraq. Latest report (as of this morning) says he's coming in third. That's probably the poor people in the slums. He's promised them Nirvana.

Phantom @ 11:27, I think your analysis is bang on, almost. Being a prairie person, I don't know a lot about the Caldonia issue, but out West, especially in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, there is a thriving Indian Industry whose work, in effect, whether intended or not, keeps native people trapped in old and fallacious mindsets, using a variety of techniques, including the law, the politics of political correctness and indoctrination in universities. The parallels with the Palestinian/Israeli thing are striking.

In my younger days, I had two big passions. One was the plight of Canada's aboriginals and the second was the plight of the Palestinians. I consider both of them now to be lost causes.

And by the way, someone back up there on the thread repeated the oft spoken nonsense that there is or was no such thing as Palestine and therefore no Palestinians. That's not only false, it's absurd. Anyone who thinks that should google the Palestine Mandate, the Balfour Declaration and the Sykes Picot Agreement.

True enough, there has never been a modern nation state called Palestine, but then you can say the same thing about Israel, prior to 1948. There was, however, a geographic territory in the Middle East that the British, at least, referred to as Palestine, the residents of which, were, quite logically, referred to as Palestinians.

Louise;

Here's a link that explains how the term "Palestine" came into being.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

As you can see, its complicated. I would take from it though that since the term first came into being to describe Greeks, and Judea was populated by Jews at the time the Romans renamed Judea as Palestine, that the so-called Palestinians today have the weakest claim to the term.

What's "film"?

I know the history, bob c. I believe it was Golda Meir who said that part of the world had too much history. That's one of the problems. There are always those who are only too happy to go waaaaay back to cherry pick factoids to fuel the latest spitting match. The Arabs like to trot out the crusades when they need them, forgetting, of course, that the crusades were merely push-back by Christendom against the Muslim usurpers of Christian lands, not to mention the countless other places the Arabs conquered.

If there weren't so many interested third parties with a dog in the fight, there would have been peace in that region a long time ago, and probably not as many settlements on disputed land.