Y2Kyoto: Our Friends, The Chinese

So, Maurice Strong has had lesser influence on the Chinese government than has previously been believed?

There wasa time when AGW made sense for Strong to support on behalf of the Chinese. But now that the Chinese are on a path to wealth and in need of resources to continue that then it no longer makes sense.

Expect Mo to back off AGW.

Praying now for the GreenPissers, and WWFers to try to invade China with their propoganda and activism.

It's pretty well over when you get caught telling lies even a degenerate commie would not have the grit to tell.

It's quite ironic that in 2010 it's necessary for the Chinese to lecture America and the western world on market economies, and that we look the the Chinese media for a journalistic moral compass.

AGW only works for the 'developing world' in the 'carbon credits' market.

China has become a net importer of coal, as well as natural gas and oil. Energy Security policy will drive their decision making.

To the degree Energy Security dovetails with 'Green Energy' they will proclaim their 'Greenness'.

Coming up with Dave Rutherford (770 AM), after 11:00 AM MST is Andrew Weaver.

What's all this got to do with the price of rice in China?

China is heavily invested in the western world.
The AGW scam will destroy their investment and put a lot of unmarried Chinese males out of work.

Idle hands...

larben
[........What's all this got to do with the price of rice in China?]

Everything actually. The PRC is no longer dominated by functionally illiterate peasant revolutionaries such as Mao and is now dominated by the intellectuals. This rivalry between TZO EN LAI and MAO was low key but omnipresent....the "cultural revolution" was a manifestation of this hidden power struggle.

As I have posted elsewhere, the FACT that AGW was a leftist hoax, was well known and understood by the intelligence services of most of the world. Climate-Gate was not an epiphany to the folks who can read newspapers from orbit and moniter EVERY TELEPHONE CALL.
OBOZO has to know the truth about AGW---if he was unaware prior to being elected the CIA brought him up to speed quickly---it goes with the territory.
Long ago I opined that BALI would fail because the Chinese with their independant attitude towards foreign policy would save us all. Copenhagen was just a continuation of that.

Of course that piece from Seth Borestein was on Dec. 12. It would be amusing to see what Seth thinks now that, in February, huge chunks of the IPCC AR 4 Working Group 2 report has been blown sky-high. Indeed, so much of the WG2 report is now discredited that it's not clear that there's any observable evidence left of the claimed effects of AGW.

Harrywr2, you have summed up the situation, very nicely, in one sentence:'AGW only works for the 'developing world' in the 'carbon credits' market'.

It has never be of any concern, to the AGW freaks, that the earth might be getting warmer,it has been all about acquiring all individual wealth. Any person who has a minimum of education knows that temperature change happens all the time; temperature change is a continuum. The tectonic plates shift (as in Haiti), the sun moves closer, the north pole tilts and shifts on the earths axis, the moon moves, the progression of the equinoxes continues...when ice melts somewhere on the globe, two changes happen: the land mass under the ice becomes lighter and rises, the other land masses sink to fill the hole the lighter mass has left vacant. It really is not rocket science.

Some crack pot hacks, hired by Global Government Communists (control over human activity via wealth control) invented a fairy tale about a natural, essential gas; CO2, being responsible for all the gigantic natural shifts of the earth and the sun! We should get some of those little frauds and their bedwetting followers to suit up and burrow down under the crust of the earth with some levers to stop those tectonic plates from shifting; some of them could get in one of the unemployed rockets and shoot the Sun spots. The adults in the room could then apply themselves to helping their countrymen with ideas about how to adapt to temperature change if we are ever confronted with a catastrophic change due to a catastrophic change in the humors of the gigantic globe that we live on.

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that a gas, produced from human activity would have any impact on the changes of the gigantic host. We really can't stop shifting tectonic plates, even with all the fools on earth burrowing down with levers, we cannot fly to the sun and shoot the spots; we can however, keep our own money and use it to prepare ourselves and our country for any burps and belches that the earth might decide to have.

Greenhouse gases are not pollution. Pollution is a problem for human beings and should be addressed, in a common sense manner, IMO.

Carbon is a catch word that appeals to the jargon spouting AGW propaganda freaks. It has no relation to temperature - burning organic material produces carbon; it can be beneficial in the long run but if the organic material has been modified the smoke is not good for living things. Don't eat what comes out of a micro-wave and stop using a heating mechanism that changes the structure of organic matter: this might be a common sense starting point for common sense people. IMO.

Harrywr2, you have summed up the situation, very nicely, in one sentence:'AGW only works for the 'developing world' in the 'carbon credits' market'.

It has never be of any concern, to the AGW freaks, that the earth might be getting warmer,it has been all about acquiring all individual wealth. Any person who has a minimum of education knows that temperature change happens all the time; temperature change is a continuum. The tectonic plates shift (as in Haiti), the sun moves closer, the north pole tilts and shifts on the earths axis, the moon moves, the progression of the equinoxes continues...when ice melts somewhere on the globe, two changes happen: the land mass under the ice becomes lighter and rises, the other land masses sink to fill the hole the lighter mass has left vacant. It really is not rocket science.

Some crack pot hacks, hired by Global Government Communists (control over human activity via wealth control) invented a fairy tale about a natural, essential gas; CO2, being responsible for all the gigantic natural shifts of the earth and the sun! We should get some of those little frauds and their bedwetting followers to suit up and burrow down under the crust of the earth with some levers to stop those tectonic plates from shifting; some of them could get in one of the unemployed rockets and shoot the Sun spots. The adults in the room could then apply themselves to helping their countrymen with ideas about how to adapt to temperature change if we are ever confronted with a catastrophic change due to a catastrophic change in the humors of the gigantic globe that we live on.

It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that a gas, produced from human activity would have any impact on the changes of the gigantic host. We really can't stop shifting tectonic plates, even with all the fools on earth burrowing down with levers, we cannot fly to the sun and shoot the spots; we can however, keep our own money and use it to prepare ourselves and our country for any burps and belches that the earth might decide to have.

Greenhouse gases are not pollution. Pollution is a problem for human beings and should be addressed, in a common sense manner, IMO.

Carbon is a catch word that appeals to the jargon spouting AGW propaganda freaks. It has no relation to temperature - burning organic material produces carbon; it can be beneficial in the long run but if the organic material has been modified the smoke is not good for living things. Don't eat what comes out of a micro-wave and stop using a heating mechanism that changes the structure of organic matter: this might be a common sense starting point for common sense people. IMO.

sorry for the double post - I got a timed out message and pushed post twice.

More to the point:

Global warming is a fraud and a decoy to keep us lemmings from railing against the real criminals. Chemical companies run amuck.

Global pollution is the real cause. We can't do much to alter solar storms anyway.

Meanwhile, were you aware that tons of bee colonies have vanished? That bee colonies are trucked all over eastern USA and Canada to pollinate crops?

Were you aware that families travel about farms in China hand pollinating orchards with feathers attached to long poles.

Were you aware of missing frog populations? They eat the chemically poisoned bugs, nest pas?

Here in British Columbia there are vastly fewer butterflies, mosquitoes and shad flies.

Smog from truck and auto exhaust in cities kills more than twice those
killed by auto accidents. Huge national medical plan savings when we switch to EVs. Add that to the Electrical auto savings side of the ledger.

Evs should help slow the alarming rise in cases of asthma in Canadian children.

TG, if things are getting as bad as you indicate, how can you possibly explain this?
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CAN&dl=en&hl=en&q=canadian+life+expectancy

Tell you what. You tell me about changes in the extent of forest cover in Canada over the past 80 years and then see if you have an argument. Oh and by the way, the amphibian population is being affected by an infection, not chemical pollution.

Third, if your electric vehicles get their electricity from fossil fuels, then smog and pollution increases. Unless you are prepared to go nuclear in a big way, then your scheme is either doomed or reserved for a handful of elite.

The bees too are dying from infections brought on by lowered immune systems.

You figure out why.

Here is a quote re: your third claim from the Nissan company.

'' Q:its great to cut down on vehicle emissions, but shouldn't i worry about the power plant used to generate the electricity too

A:Even in its dirtiest form, the grid is 60% cleaner than gas. And it will get cleaner over time, unlike gas. ''

So much for your knee-jerk uninformed opinion.

Nissan could not risk a big slap-down by posting lies on its commercial USA website.
So its probably true.

The Chi-Coms may be on 'our' side re AGW, but they are NOT our friends. Beware the evil empire, they look for only one interest, their own.

From same website...

'' The national average is $0.1147/kWh. That means the average cost to charge the car would be $2.75 from 0% to 100%.''

Our Hydro average in B.C. Van. Isle is lower than US = 11.4 cents at only 5.6 cents.

$2 sure beats $60 per fill of the tank.

It is not up to guments to deal with pollution; that job is the responsibility of citizens.

TG- I agree with much of your comment regarding pollution, but the bee situation has been misrepresented, to a degree. Bees have been trucked all over North America for many, many years. They are mostly non-native species in most of Canada, and northern US. Non-native species have a habit of developing health problems.

I've noticed an increase in frog populations in Alberta, since the decades long drought ended a couple of years ago. If you're seeing a drop in mosquito populations in BC, by all means, feel free to come to Alberta, and take some of ours.

You say that gas(gasoline) will never get any cleaner, but I've seen drastic improvements in auto emissions, in a relatively short time. The key to that will be price, and consumption. The market is already dictating lower consumption, so I'd guess the air around here is cleaner than it's been for 50 years.

Asthma is the one issue I have no opinion on. The number of cases seems to be on the rise. If I had to guess, I'd start looking at the food supply.

Another factor in some of the problems TG mentions, is the fact there are a lot more people squeezing into a limited productive land mass. What else could possibly happen, when people are competing for resources? That's not going to change, any time soon.

I've read that asthma is much more prevalent in children that live in apartments in cities because they are not outside playing in the dirt. I'll always remember our 2 year old pulling a worm from our backyard and eating it 34 years ago. No asthma in our kids.

I think you're onto something, tranio. A lot of people never see real dirt, just dust from concrete, drywall, and any number of toxic building materials.

@TG
The cheap electricity you speak of will disappear if more EVs take to the road. If gas consumption falls, governments will be forced to replace lost tax revenues by imposing more taxes on electricity, rest assured the cost per charge up of an EV will quickly escalate to close to that of a tank of gas. Baring direct taxes on electricity, a yearly licensing charge (pun intended) could be levied on EVs. There's no such thing as a free lunch, or cheap power anymore sparky.
I suggest you study a little more economics, and public policy, instead of just eco-sciences.

I was about to write what Al the fish wrote to TG: There's no way that tax revenue will be allowed to vanish.

BTW: how much pollution is created in the making of the batteries of an EV?

@ Frozen Manitoba,

Fair EV taxation will be on bi-monthly odometer check-in, like when your hydro meter is read. There's still time to get by scot free however.

Govt of B.C. website says our grid can support over 3 million evs off peak charging with no stress whatsoever.

Pollution in battery production?

Compared to refining oils, smelting for engine blocks, radiators, mufflers, rubber pipes, etc. etc.... not so much.

Batteries have a second useful life in public buildings after performing in the vehicle to 80%. Then they are re-cycled.

@TG
Regarding your statement:
"Fair EV taxation will be on bi-monthly odometer check-in, like when your hydro meter is read. There's still time to get by scot free however."

Yep, every good citizen wants to have to show up at some Government office every two months to show some new government agency employee how much they've driven.

Imagine this conversation: "TG, I see your odometer is showing about 1000km less this inspection than your last several. Why is that? Have you tampered with your odometer? Based on past use, we will have to average your charge up to the next 1000 of a km. The Province and the Federal Government has its budgets and we depend on you paying your fair share, so pay up TG, otherwise we will have to impound your car."

And your little snippet: “There’s still time to get by scot free however." sounds like something I'd expect a Liberal politician to say to a friend prior to the dropping of a budget.

If you want to be green TG, be green, but not a green weasel.

Not all provinces have the benefit of plentiful hydroelectricity like you state B.C. has. How are Provinces like Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, P.E.I., New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and the Territories supposed to provide for the increased electrical usage when they are today dependent on carbon based power creation?

Wind? Hasn't worked well for places like Great Britain this winter.
Solar? Hmmm, not dependable in the land of the midnight sun, that is also in the dark for a good part of the year.

I guess we'll have to take your power from B.C. and give it to the rest of the country for the National good.
So B.C. will get to feel screwed like Alberta has been in the past by so-called National energy policies.

TG, you need to develop a view of the issue in a larger practical scale, think outside your little blue box of recycled eco babble.

Hey Frozen, don't be bitter.

Guess you are not aware of the national and provincial laws regarding the tampering with any automotive odometer.

Its the most fair system as it reflects the exact highway use and not the value of fuel you pay for that varies greatly from compact to muscle truck.

@TG
Not bitter, just pragmatic.

I guess you aren’t familiar with reality.

Yes, I know there are anti-tampering laws for odometers, and people still try to cheat and get caught.
Just as there are people who try to by-pass their house’s electrical meter.

You say your plan may be the fairest method, but it is far from practical.
I repeat, people will not line their cars up to be checked by a government employee every 2 months, 3 months, 6 months etc. Your method will create a new level of bureaucracy, and inconvenience for the general public that they will not accept. Maybe in B.C you and your like minded friends will all patiently wait in line and maybe sing Kumbaya, will smoking a little weed from a grow-op powered with stolen electricity.

If life were fair, we’d all be healthy, wealthy, and wise.
But life isn’t fair; we have to face the reality of that, just as you have to face the reality of the weakness of your grand scheme.

Not that I believe in the Global Warming, but the chinese do have skin in this game. The Chinese are building vast numbers of CO2 producing power plants.

IF AGW were even mildly correct, the Chinese would have some interest in poo-pooing the idea.

Hey, it's not like political considerations have ever influenced scientists...

Study both the critics and believers, I say.

TG:

the air is less polluted today than it was five ten twenty and forty years ago. A vw beetle made in 1969 polluted about the same as a thousand times that of a 2010 car.

Re: electric car costs

make sure you factor in that BC hydro pays no taxes

also there is much higher taxation of gas than electricity

And multiply the number you came up with by a four to ten times to equate the same range and weight of a typical SUV operating in -40 weather (running a heater is up to ten times less efficient using eletricity)

TG, you really are an idiot. How long did it take you to find that lying quote from Nissan? You have to sort through a ton of sales rubbish to get to it. So lets deal with the substance of your claim. Nissan refers to "the grid". A large part of the grid is carbon free, especially in Canada. However, all of that electricity, particularly the hydraulic part is fully in use. Electrifying vehicles are MARGINAL to the system.

That means, you illiterate moron, that you have to build NEW electric generation facilities to handle the demand. Since there's little hydraulic left in most provinces that means either nuclear or coal. Now, your typical coal-fired power plant has a 35% thermal efficiency. That means you lose most of the energy simply making the electricity to an electric motor that's about 95% efficient.

With a gasoline powered car, it has an overall thermal efficiency of about 20% or roughly the same overall as the electric vehicle. However, gasoline has a far higher hydrogen and far lower carbon content than does coal. That means its CLEANER than coal-fired electricity.

So, you build nukes or windmills if you want clean electric vehicles. And wind can't produce the kWh required.

TG, I'm glad you are getting such a good deal on power in BC. Here in NS the dipper government is crating a crown corp that will edumacte us dumb electricity users on how to use less power. But ya gotta luv the next part. This program will be paid by, wait for it, the consumers! I get to pay more so someone can tell me how to use less.

B.C. Hydro & Government websites state present capacity for EV battery charging is more than 3 million over night with no added investment in the grid.

Even using coal power, the EV is 60% more efficient than gasoline and diesel.

Ooops, could not recall that website so here is an official statement that lists a more moderate capacity for BC hydro ability to easily service 2.5 million electric vehicles.

cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/01/27/nl-ufo-military-012710.html#socialcomments

http://tinyurl.com/y9zsg3m

There's enough under-used capacity in British Columbia's power grid to charge 2.5 million electric vehicles, almost the number of vehicles on B.C. roads right now, a new study suggests.

The study by the Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions says British Columbia's light-duty fleet — private cars, vans and pickup trucks totals about 2.54 million vehicles.

Even if almost all of them were replaced by plug-in electric vehicles, which wouldn't happen for at least 50 years under the most optimistic forecast, the existing power grid could easily handle them even in winter, when demand is heaviest, the study says.

Read more:cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/11/03/bc-electric-vehicle-study.html#ixzz0eWTA16vU