Colby Cosh;
... I suppose one might point out that even the wicked Pat Robertson is entitled to just treatment at the hands of his critics. In talking about the “curse” he believes Haiti lies under, Robertson was referring to a genuine event in the annals of that country’s revolutionary struggle—the 1791 Voodoo prayer for liberty in the Bois Caïman. As some liberal and perhaps even “secularist” observers have pointed out, this aspect of Haitian history is something of a legitimate problem for traditional Haitian Christians. It might even be a problem for a sincere Catholic who took the trouble to inquire into it! Would Rex Murphy, squeezed into 18th-century breeches and sent by time machine to the Bois Caïman, have happily pledged his life to the destruction of the “pitiless” “white men’s god”? Freely inquiring minds want to know!
Related - As if we were going to see any of it in the first place.
Fuit, goes a billion dollars. Haitian debt is nothing on the big scale, probably same as one mile of an average Canadian road. But overall, a billion bucks f*cked away is quite some cash.
Why are we prosecuting the shoplifters, when a bureaucrat can erase $3000 per every Canadian with one strike of a pen?
I agree with Cosh than no sensible Christian of any denomination would endorse Robertson's remarks.
There are slightly less stupid than Danny Glover's remarks about Gaia seeking retribution over Copenhagen's inaction.
Earthquakes have been around since the beginning of time and are a naturally-occuring phenomena.
As for the reasons of Haiti's relative poverty ($1317 per capita annual income vs the Dominican's $8672) ... you'd have to ask the ghost of Papa Doc Duvalier for that one.
PR might have said stupid isht, but if you listen to the entire clip, he was quite compassionate, and was looking at the big picture. So what? The guy said they are "cursed", he was speaking in the past tense and was optimistic about Haiti's future, especially if they follow gods message.
Robertson is a senile crank.
Glover is a gormless actor.
I, er, think we're pretty well done with this issue now.
I didn't find anything mean spirited in Robertson's comments, after hearing the full passage. It doesn't mean I defending him on the content, but the ugly feeding frenzy that resulted reveals more about the media than it does Robertson.
Spot on, Kate. It is so typical of taking things out of context and even twisting what was said when it applies to comments made by a serious Christian. I do not need to agree with Robertson's take in order to recognise the total dishonesty coming from the media. Considering all the really serious news never being reported, to seek out one man's opinion and exploit it explains why fewer and fewer people take the media seriously.
In my opinion, Kate and Indiana Homez have the most accurate assessment. Robertson picked the wrong time to talk about history.
I first saw P.R.'s comment on Keith Olbermann's show a couple of days ago,after which he and a D-Fla rep then ripped PR a new a~.
I didn't find anything in PR's comments mean spirited.
BTW, I only watch MSNBC when Fox News goes to commercial.
A lot of the earthquake damage was due to lack of steel reinforcement in the concrete structures which then crumbled and fell on the heads of the occupants.
It would be reasonable to give some credit to the religious views of the Haitian people, Voodoo being a fatalistic view, for that lack of reinforcement.
Yes, using no steel is cheaper and a byproduct of corruption, but the religious view of the people facilitates such practices.
Go to YouTube or LiveLeak and do a search for U.S. Coast Guard Haiti to see aerial footage of the damage.
Haiti isn't as "flattened" as some people think, but the unreinforced buildings are probably unsafe and will have to be replaced.
A people's religious view does affect their lives in tangible ways.
The Honourable Jim Flaherty, Minister of Finance, today announced that the Government of Canada will forgive $2.3 million in debt owed by the Republic of Haiti through the Canadian Debt Initiative. With this relief, Canada has now cancelled $965 million worth of debt owed by the world’s poorest and most heavily indebted countries, including all of the eligible debt owed by Latin American and Caribbean nations.
Why does our government pretend to "lend" these nations money when the Canadian government just forgives the debt later?
Is it because the government thinks the Canadian people are stupid, if Canadians are paying any attention at all?
If that's the case the government may be right or it could be like putting unspectacular leftovers in the fridge, knowing they won't be eaten, and then feeling better about throwing them away later after they grow feathers and tentacles.
How would you feel if you knew the government knew it was just giving your money away and the money would get no long term result for the giving as it is with Haiti?
I wouldn't go quite as far as Robertson but I would say that a large part of Haiti's systemic problems is their belief system. If you look at the world through a 'religious' lens you see an interesting pattern. The area where one religion dominates the culture reflects that religion. Islamic countries tend to have a similar culture through out the world. Secular Humanist countries tend to have a similar culture through out the world. Buddhist countries have a similar culture through out the world. Animist/Voodu countries have a similar culture through out the world. Christian countries have a similar culture through out the world. What's more, people I've spoken to and books I've read seem to indicate that if you change the religion you also change the culture.
One can see the change taking place in Canada as we slip from a Christian country to as Secular Humanist country. We are becoming more and more like socialist Europe and the Soviet Union where often Secular Humanism is the state religion.
It is never wrong time to talk about history.
Problem is fewer and fewer among us know and remember history.
All that young Canadians learn at school is how the first nations used to live, and they give a cursory glance to the other cultures, i.e. they read about Roman aqueducts, but nothing about their emperors and victories/defeats. They read about medieval castles but nothing about the battle of Tours. The list goes on.
Even if PR was 100% correct in what he said, pointing it out while people are pulling corpses out of the rubble is awful.
A friend of mine died from lung cancer due to smoking. All on my own I managed to figure out that pointing it out at the funeral wasn't appropriate.
It doesn't mean I [am] defending him on the content, but the ugly feeding frenzy that resulted reveals more about the media than it does Robertson.
Sometimes a lie can be told by telling a partial truth and leaving out very pertinent and essential information. The media reports never mention Robertson's tone of voice or his body language, which appears to me to be one of compassion - although a critic might suggest that is feigned. The most telling item is the actions of his organization: the charitable giving.
Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.
I have not done any verification to determine if the statement "shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti" is true or not. However, I have full faith in the MSM for their constant, unrelenting (even in the time of this Haitian trouble), vicious, and contemptible hatred of anything bearing the name Christian. This faith in the MSM assures me that (with their own people now in Haiti) we would hear all about it if Robertson's words were mere talk.
Finally, I agree with Ken that Mr. Robertson was indiscrete with his timing.
bob c:
Correct.
For either Robertson or Glover to blame the cause on a natural phenomenon with something totally unrelated seems not only inappropriate, but dumb.
I can guarantee you that the earthquake did not happen because of:
A) The screwed-up political system of Haiti or its predominant religion.
B) Gaia's punishment to mankind for its failure at Copenhagen.
You are spot on Joe.
I was very disappointed with John Gormley as he endlessly beat this horse. I was tempted to call in and ask him what seminary he went to.
No great fan of PR but his program is a "religious" program...this is what they discuss on "religious" programs!!
If John wants to pontificate on the subject of religion then, John (I know you read this blog), read the book "Whats so Great about Christianity"
http://www.dineshdsouza.com/books/christianity-jacket.html
Then John you could opine with some authority.
Its the book atheists and agnostics love to hate.
One of the best books written on religion in 50 years.
As for the debt cancellation...would it not make more sense for my government to cancel my debts so I can put more into the production of wealth (maybe buy some potash) and give me the freedom to give to the charities of my choosing??
Canada cancels all Haitian debt?
Sounds like preparatory citizenship training for emigration to Quebec.
Does that mean all my debts are forgiven as well?
It IS fair...and maybe this is what PR was trying to say, is that Haiti's inability to build a modern functioning infrastructure and society and be prepared to react to such a tragedy is rooted in its religious and political history.
A read Desouza's book can not be exaggerated in its revealing look at history.
I agree with Joe at 2:27.
Considering that 'slave ships' were sailing the briny deep in 1791 small wonder that the Haitians had a distrust of the 'white man's god'.
By the same token one could allege that modern day Haitians are cursed because the area supported piracy eg the island of Tortuga...
Famous Caribbean pirates:
Jean Fleury
François Le Clerc
Blackbeard
Henry Morgan
Bartholomew Roberts
Stede Bonnet
Charles Vane
Edward Low
Anne Bonny and Mary Read
One might make the observation that PR imbibed too much rum...
If indeed some Haitians made a 'deal with the devil' in 1791 then that is a problem for those who made the deal, rather than today's Haitians.
PR's 'devil may care' recollection of Haitian history may well be ill-considered in a time of misfortune; but no more so, than Danny Glover's ruminations of a linkage between CO2 and geological events.
This would be of the same order as ascribing the 1692 earthquake that sank Jamaica's Port Royal, once known as the "Sodom of the New World", to the fact that they later hung too many pirates...and had done a deal with the devil.
Hailing Jack Sparrow...
Elizabeth: Pirate or not, this man saved my life.
Norrington: One good deed is not enough to save a man from a life time of wickedness.
Jack: Though it seems enough to condemn him.
Norrington: Indeed!
Luke 9:25
For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?
As to cancelling Haiti's debt, of course there is no profit in charity, but then that isn't the point in any case.
Cheers
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North"
If Cosh were really brave he'd question the voodoo elements in the Governor General's choice of a coat of arms.
Shaidle where are you? Shaidle? Shaidle!?
Also, clearly cheesed that the crackpot limelight has been snatched away from him by Robertson and Glover, nutty old Hugo Chávez - darling of "progressives" everywhere - is claiming the US is trying to occupy Haiti:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/18/2010-01-18_hugo_chavez.html
Can someone explain the concept of "timing" to me? I never understood it. It something is true it is true. The truth hurts.
If you're concerned about "hurt feelings," I doubt the already illiterate people of Haiti were sitting around reading the debate over Robertson in the papers.
Besides, unlike Danny Glover, Robertson has raised millions in charity to nations like Haiti, along with providing scholarships to minorities in the US. Again, unlike Glover.
Media people just like bashing Christians. Nobody watches Robertson's show except reporters hoping for gotchas. His ratings are less than a million viewers a day, in a nation of 300 million.
If he didn't OWN HIS OWN TV STATION, his show would have been cancelled years ago.
A sense of proportion is always helpful, but not something most lefties cultivate.
Did "God create an earthquake"? Nope. Are Haitians to blame for their crappy infrastructure after all these years, because of their voodoo-inspired "**** happens" attitude? Yep.
Voodoo teaches that bad things happen to bad people. Right now, the people most likely to think Haitians "asked for it" are... actual Haitians.
Weird, yeah -- but take it up with them.
Re the first comment on this chain. 1 Billion dollars is alot of money to be tossed away (It would certainly pay for alot of MRI's), but it is not 3000.00 per Canadian. Its 30.00 per Canadian
100billion is 3000 per Canadian.
Agree with Indiana and Kate RE the full clip of Robertson.
Whether or not Haiti is cursed and whether or not God "sent" the earthquake are judgments I'm not willing to make, and I think that's where Robertson erred, for who knows these things except God?
There is little doubt, however, that Haiti has imbibed and nurtured its voodoo/animist spirituality and, from a Christian perspective, has gone the way of Cain. From a Christian perspective there is ample grounds upon which to say Haiti is reaping the whirlwind after having sown to the wind.
If you take time to do any sort of humanitarian work in Haiti, which I have, you will know there is something amiss there. Yes, historical economic, environmental and political factors all have a role in forming what we know to be Haiti today. But so has the spiritual, and those who disregard its influence leave out a significant source of Haiti's troubles, for the spiritual -- like the other factors -- has sculpted Haitian hearts and minds for more than two centuries.
bob c at January 18, 2010 2:30 PM
Spot on. That's an excellent analogy, viz., not bringing up a friend's smoking habit at his funeral.
The timing itself, without regard to the aptness of the content, was mean-spirited, just as many commenters here were mean-spirited in discussing Haiti's dysfunctional history on the very day of the earthquake, while bodies we're being pulled from the rubble, providing excellent fuel for lefty trols.
Cosh is full of shite, just as he was recently when demeaning Canadians for being skeptical -- correctly as it turned out -- about the swine flu hoax. What's he up to, anyway: is he trying to be the Canadian Hitchens, Mr. Contrarian Canuck?
I love to read what atheists think serious Christians should or should not believe.
"Surely you don't believe in that God, devil and sin stuff?" they ask.
No, really, we just go for the coffee and cake.
I disagree that a belief in 'voodoo' in any way contributed to the inadequate housing structures in Haiti. That's not only unprovable, it's also irrational and trivial.
What is much more realistic is that the COST of building adequate housing was beyond the reach of the average Haitian. Why? Because Haiti is politically and economically and socially CORRUPT.
Haiti operates (excuse the word) as a two-tiered society. An elite of about 3%, made up of about 30 families run Haiti. For themselves. Politically and economically - it's all theirs. They speak French; they own the land, factories, everything. And, all the international aid disappears into their pockets and banks.
The mass of the population have no power; they speak Creole. The govt does not build an economic infrastructure for them - no roads, no hydro, regular water. No schooling - over half the population is illiterate. About 90% of the schools are private schools and only the elite go there.
The elite do not regulate housing construction; they do not provide funds for proper housing; they do not provide adequate medical services and care..and so on.
So, the real reason for the Haitian housing collapse - and the utter chaos that now exists - is the fact that this 3% of Haitians, the elite, run the island for themselves. Not for the people.
Absolutely nothing to do with any religion or voodoo or other such nonsensical assertions.
> Did "God create an earthquake"? Nope.
Boy, you are arrogant! How could you possibly know?
Not too sure ET. Isn't it fair to say that "religion" has played a pivotal role in how countries have developed and is reflected in their governments? I'm agnostic, but I recognize the benefits of being born and raised in a Judeo/Christian culture. I don't know anything about Voodoo, and I won't make the stretch that it is responsible for the political climate in Haiti, but I do recognize it as a factor and a possibility.
Some nerd was going to bring this up eventually, so it might as well be me: Lisbon, Portugal experienced a major earthquake in 1755 which really - um, how you say, blew people's minds? - well, it was a major event in the history of the Enlightenment anyway. As I understand it, the destruction of Lisbon shook up ideas about divine Providence; it influenced Voltaire, Kant, Samuel Johnson...
Seems very relevant, in it's way.
its way.
You knew it was SH's fault.
Watch for Liberal tourist Mr. Iffy to curse the cursed Tories.
...-
"Red tape ensnares newlywed's Haitian husband
A Canadian woman says her new husband, who survived last week's devastating earthquake, could die if the government doesn't help get him out of Haiti immediately." (canoenews)
ET its not the 'belief in' that causes the problem its the 'practice of' that presents the problems. To say that a small elite runs Haiti is absolutely right. What is it that keeps them in power except the people's belief system. Voodu like Islam and to a large extent Hindu is fatalistic in nature. There is no point raging against the oppression if you believe your given lot in life is suffering under the oppression. There is no need to stop being the elite if you believe it is your given lot in life to be the elite. Combine that with the belief that the powerful have an in with the lwa (earth spirits) and you have a very docile people. My friend from Ghana describes how he grew up in mortal fear of the village witch. The village elders could turn the whole community into a quivering mass of jelly with the mere threat of calling the witch.
ET: " ... the real reason for the Haitian housing collapse - and the utter chaos that now exists [has] ... Absolutely nothing to do with any religion or voodoo or other such nonsensical assertions."
Like Indiana says.
The religious beliefs of a nation have a great influence on how the populace comports itself, their priorities, their institutions, whether or not -- and how -- their populace is educated, how the less fortunate are provided and cared for, etc..
As you will notice, nations whose foundations are underpinned by Judeo-Christian values put a high premium on educating their people, on caring for their people, on providing services for them and the means by which each individual and family can make a living. These countries foster capitalism, free markets, entrepreneurial endeavours, and charitable giving, and, by and large, these are the countries that immigrants from tyrannical regimes whose institutions and practices are not based on Judeo-Christian values clamour to move to. You'll notice that the traffic is never the other way around.
Voodoo is a dark, vindictive, and superstitious religion which believes in, and practises, witchcraft. It has a hold on its practitioners/believers and it's pretty clear that it has not fostered a similar care and concern for one's neighbours as Judeo-Christianity has. Their respective standards are not comparable.
At the moment, the West is living off the capital of the humanitarian societies built by Christian believers. As our societies are becoming increasingly secular, and as multicultural immigrants who practise other faiths or no faiths, grow in influence, we are sadly going to continue to see a diminishing of the law-abiding, ordered, caring societies we once took for granted.
Look at England.
indiana homez and joe - no, I disagree that the belief system (of voodoo) has any causal role in the two-tiered political and economic infrastructure of Haiti.
It might enable the mass to accept, with resignation, their lack of power, but it certainly doesn't CAUSE that lack of power!
I certainly understand and accept the fear of the witch/devil/spirits etc in Ghana, but one has to look at the economic infrastructure to see how that fear can succeed. It will only succeed in a situation where the peasant has no economic or political power.
The cause of the lack of power in Haiti is the corruption of the system that enables a small set of 30 families to not only control but to abuse the mass of the population. There is no sense of 'noblesse oblige' that duty-to-the-peasants that enabled the feudal period in Europe to survive, successfully, for so many centuries. [Without the external aid that keeps Haiti's people alive].
Whereas the discussion of the world view system of the average Haitan is an interesting one, the on-topic idea of the duplicity of the MSM in regards to Mr. Robertson's statement is a topic unto itself.
Had the media properly reported not only what Mr. Robertson said but had their pundits properly reported his body language and tone, the comments that surrounded the statement in question, and the generous medical charitable help, then this would never have been a story. The reason that this would not have been a story is that is would not fit with the MSM idea of a full court press attack against a conservative Christian. Had the media reported the entire story, an unbiased viewer would have viewed the story as a mostly positive story with, perhaps, only a "well, I don't know about that part" thought in his/her mind regarding the statement in question.
The media is, in effect, lying..... Again.
ET - it seems to me that if something is maintaining a system, it's effectively "causing" it.
Or is that semantics?
After all, you just mentioned the lack of a sense of "noblesse oblige" - also part of the belief system that contributes to the functioning of the whole.
Please don't think I'm trying to be contentious for no reason, but like Indy I'm an agnostic who can't claim to know much about Voodoo, and I'd like to understand.
(BTW - anyone else think that maybe Haiti should become a Protectorate, or whatever Puerto Rico is or the Philippines were, of the United States? Mightn't that be the best bet at this point?)
ET, you didn't answer my objections to your thesis.
But, in answering Indiana Homez and Joe you conclude: "There is no sense of 'noblesse oblige' that duty-to-the-peasants that enabled the feudal period in Europe to survive, successfully, for so many centuries..There is no sense of 'noblesse oblige' that duty-to-the-peasants that enabled the feudal period in Europe to survive, successfully, for so many centuries. [Without the external aid that keeps Haiti's people alive]."
First, where do you think the "noblesse oblige" came from? None other than the Christian belief that to whom much is given much is expected and what you do to the least of these my brethren you do to me (Jesus). I could site many more biblical references but I think that these two suffice to make my point.
Second, who is providing much of the outside aid to Haiti? Many Christian groups provide education, shelter, homes for orphans, food, health care and have for a very long time. Voodoo doesn't seem to put a premium on being your brother's/sister's keeper.
As for the media's treatment of Pat Robertson's comments, nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to the media's out-and-out animus to Christians and the Christian religion. Christians are in their cross hairs and beneath their contempt. They feel completely justified in misrepresenting and trashing Christians and their beliefs -- even when Christians are in the forefront of relief efforts.
I sent the CBC an e-mail yesterday asking why the role of the churches as first responders in Haiti -- and any disaster, for that matter -- as they usually are, wasn't being covered?
Lo and behold, about an hour later there was a whole spate of items from Christian missionaries on the ground in Haiti. Hmmm. I hesitate to think that my prodding them had anything to do with it ...
You know ET I don't believe hat CO2 causes global warming. However I do believe that without CO2 the world would be a cooler place.
I don't believe that the society's belief system is the soul driving factor of how the society forms and changes. However I would never suggest that the people's beliefs have no influence. The evidence is all around us and as my friend from Ghana points out, when the native religion was replaced by Christianity he realized his potential and became an educated man. He maintains that had he remained in fear of the village witch he would still be living the quasi-subsistence lifestyle his village had been living for centuries.
What gave him the strength to move on was the very idea that God the Creator of the entire universe loved him and wanted him to succeed. His old view of God was that of an impersonal being that had set up all kinds of "earth spirits" to keep the people from rising above their station. We see the same effect in human society. If the parent is distant and unloving the child does not do well. If the parent is loving and involved the child will thrive.
batb - your post came online after I posted my 'thesis'.
By the way, most of the Haitian population is Roman Catholic and the voodoo aspect is a tag-along 'folk' addendum/mixture. But that's hardly relevant.
I'm not talking AGAINST the Christian religion (or for it). After all, since the majority in Haiti are Catholic, and in particular, the elite who control the economy and political system are Catholic, then according to YOUR thesis, the concept of 'noblesse oblige' ought to be prevalant in Haiti.
And actually, the voodoo concept in Haiti puts a great deal of stress on family and family support systems. The notion of 'brother's keeper' is very strong. The 'spirits' are deceased family members, and the family - the extended family - is the basic economic unit. Equally, the virtues of generosity and support to the community are strong values. It's a communal rather than an individual belief system.
I'm saying that the basic reason for the lack of a societal 'caring' structure in Haiti is the corrupt economic/political system that puts all power in the hands of an elite set of 30 families. And it is this set who feel no sense of obligation to the 'creoles', who are understood as a non-people.
It is not 'voodoo' that is maintaining the system; it is the economic and political infrastructure! And this is 'maintained' by force - those elite families have strong security to protect them.
What the catholic-voodoo mixture religion does- and it's a family or communal belief system is that it enables those without to subsist and endure. And the pop culture images of satanism and magicial zombies are just that - pop culture.
At the same time, as with almost ALL subsistence types of economic belief systems around the world, Haitian voodoo does not place a great role on individualism - but on communal integration and helping each other. So, you don't get a belief system that encourages individuals to rise up against the elite, or to mount opposition to the elite.
Black Mamba - that's a very good idea, a protectorate, to have an outside power come in and rid Haiti of that corrupt infrastructure. Like Bush did with Iraq. It might be the only way this could be dealt with.
Thus we have ET's thesis that 'voodoo economics' of the 30 families of elitism in Haiti, is gumming up the works, barring people from rising above their station in life.
It is all well and good to talk about the general faith orientation of the populace at large, this doesn't mean the elites share those values; save for a nominal adherence for photo op purposes.
Cheers
Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North"
joe - in my view, religion is related to the economic mode - and subsistence economies that provide only enough for a small population - are usually polytheistic, with multiple spirits, supporting the extended family.
Once the Ghanaian economy had changed to enable individuals to move out of this subsistence and extended family infrastructure, they could do just that.
So, I'll continue to disagree. The ideological belief system emerges AFTER the economic infrastructure; it supports that economic infrastructure.
Yes ET and there are some out there that believe fire doesn't melt steel and that AGW is an immanent threat despite all the evidence.
Without the Bible we wouldn't have this:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with
certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty
and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights,
governments are instituted among men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any
form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is
the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute
new government, laying its foundation on such principles and
organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem
most likely to effect their safety and happiness."
Now, whether God decreed this (unalienable rights) or if Christianity was simply the vehicle used on the road to enlightenment(hopefully for my sake) is another discussion; but, one thing is certain. Many of the countries and cultures we often discuss at sda do not adhere to such a document, nor do they follow the aforementioned Judeo-Christian values. This fundamental understanding of INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY and the role of government is what these countries/cultures are missing.
ET is correct. Voodoo is actually Afro-Catholicism.
Today apparently some Haitian voodoo practitioners declared that the earthquakes happened because of immorality.
In Voudon one must be baptized into the Catholic faith before they can assume the role of an official priest or priestess relating to the Voudon Loia (their system of gods/saints).
Actually what we think of as voodoo exists under different names throughout the Carribean and much of South America. African slaves brought their old gods with them and then grafted them onto Catholic saints when they converted to Catholicism.
Voodoo was very big in New Orleans among French Creole descendents before Hurricane Katrina.
Santeria has entered the US with Cuban and Puerto Rican immigrants and is also a derivative of voodoo.
Pharmacologists have been to Haiti trying to find out how the catatonic states of zombies are produced. Some of them believe they have found basic ingredients that can effect the kind of mindless, will-less, zombie-like behavior associated with this phenomenon.
Whether God had something to do with the earthquake is simply the old problem in theodicy:
1) If God is all good and
2) God is all-powerful, and
3) God is all-knowing, then
God knows the earthquake is going to happen, is powerful enough to stop the earthquake, and is good, and therefore wishes to prevent suffering.
Since the earthquake occurred, the theological question then becomes:
1) Maybe God is not all-knowing and simply did not know the earthquake was coming, or
2) God is not all good and therefore did not wish to spare the Haitians suffering, or
3) God knew the earthquake was coming, but was powerless to stop it and therefore is not all-powerful.
I personally regard these ideas as a very pedestrian way of looking at the divine nature of the universe, which, after all, includes the initiation and the destruction of whole planetary systems. But nonetheless that is usually the way that theology is approached.
please folks
Pat the fool has spent a life time proving himself a jackass, a liar, a fool and a crook, now don't besmerch his reputation by saying other wise
and he does claim to be a christian!!!!!
ET - I value your opinion and I usually agree with you, but I think you are wrong on this, for reasons that other posters have already explained very well.
Sorry Greg but that reasoning is flawed.
The fact is, all things considered, it's possible that the earthquake is "good" in gods eyes. You see, only god can see the whole picture; therefore, the human calculation of what is "good" and "bad" is flawed.
"You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and then your have..."
"You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there your have..."
fixed