Now is the time at SDA when we juxtapose!
Tommy Douglas; - “Once more let me remind you what fascism is. It need not wear a brown shirt or a green shirt -- it may even wear a dress shirt. Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege."
Tommy Dougas; - Some have objected to sterilization on the grounds that it is depriving human beings of an unalienable right. But medical science declares that it is possible to be sterilized and yet have sexual intercourse. In the main this is all the defective asks. Among them the parental instinct is not paramount, but is entirely subordinated to the sex urge. Thus sterilization would deprive them of nothing that they value very highly, and would make it impossible for them to reproduce those whose presence could contribute little to the general well-being of society.
The second Tommy Douglas quote is not dated but I bet it comes from the 1930s when eugenics was in fashion. From what I have read, eugenics was the "settled science" of its day. Then Hitler gave it a bad name.
So, having sexual intercourse is all that "defective(s)" really want. I guess that makes 90% of all males from puberty to dead "defective".Dang it all, the wife was right: I am a ...
Tommy Douglas was by far one of the most enlightened and progressive premiers of his time. Without his foresight and tenacity we would not have universal, government sponsored health care. He truly was ahead of his time. Even today some of the ideas surrounding universal health care that Douglas envisioned are being adopted in Obama's health care legislation. His public service was invaluable. He was a great politician and a great human being.
His advocacy of building special camps for subnormals was also ahead of his time.
Good example Kate.
Until the day I day, I will wonder why the left say they want more personal freedom, but then scream for more government intervention. A defective way of thinking indeed.
Special camps for sub-normals. Was he going to build camps for right wing conservatives?
spell check!
Dougas
"Even today some of the ideas surrounding universal health care that Douglas envisioned are being adopted in Obama's health care legislation"
And everyone knows Obama's got it right. Right? RIGHT?
I'm just happy Larry Hubich is running the SFL. Not only is that guy an intellectual lightweight, but he's dumber than a bag of hammers.
I'm sure the Saskies love having Larry as an self-proclaimed opponent of their policies.
Who else wishes that he could have taken his notions of sterilization and applied them to T's parents? Clearly there was something defective in that family.
Tommy Douglas was NOT a great man, if given the power he would have become Americas Hitler.
Kate makes her point masterfully.
Douglas at first laments fascism, and then proposes it's use to rid ourselves of degenerates.
A typical lefty!
"...destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation..."
That ain't a Tommy Douglas reference of hypocrisy. That is the state of Canadian democracy over the past 30 years.
Does anyone have a link to Cousin Tommy's "The Problems of the Subnormal Family"? I'd like to peruse that document...
Click here
(fixed now)
kate, I got a 404 error on the link.
At least Tommy Douglas knew climate change was natural.
for those that must see for themselves,
McMaster's website to view tommy dear's thesis.
http://morris.mcmaster.ca/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=W20E4526539R7.99100&profile=lib&source=~!morris&view=subscriptionsummary&uri=full=3100001~!784779~!4&ri=3&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ipp=20&spp=20&staffonly=&term=Douglas,+Thomas+Clement,+1904-&index=AUTHO&uindex=&aspect=basic_search&menu=search&ri=3#focus
Thanks Kate, I'm about five pages in and man the 'progressives' can keep him. It's a must read I must say.
Tommy "the commie" Douglas. Not near dead enough!
The scumbag who forced undemocratic ideals on our once great nation. The parliament rejected his forced taxpayer funded medical farce over and over but he never relented. ...and look at us now. SO SAD. We failed to stop the commie.
Douglas, Turdoh, Stalin, Marx all not dead enough.
"economic democracy" - is that like"social justice", and other meaningless contradictory expressions the left`likes to use when they really mean "a boot,stomping on a human face, forever"
http://unitedstatesofscamerica.blogspot.com/2010/01/pass-bark-please.html
Special camps for sub-normals. Was he going to build camps for right wing conservatives?
Posted by: T at January 3, 2010 11:17 AM
He would have gotten around to it. His type always find a new "defective".
The socialist's perspective:
For any of life's problems, there's nothing a bit more government won't fix.
In 1947 or 1948, while attending high school in Lloydminster three of us farmboys went to a Tommy Douglas political rally. My one outstanding memory of that presentation was his treatment of an aging Barr Colonist and business man, H. C. Messum, during the question and answer session. Messum was not a spellbinding orator but asked some well prepared questions. Douglas, with his silver tongued oratory, eviscerated and embarrassed the fine old gentleman. My political inclinations were very much in their formative stages but that night turned me into a lifelong anti CCF/NDPer.I said to myself that if Douglas could not at least show respect for that fine old pioneer gentleman I could never respect him or his party.
It's from pre-Internet days so I doubt it's online, but Lorrie Goldstein wrote a full-page (but with photos) piece in the Toronto Sun in the Preston Manning days (and before the Sun when full-out Red Tory) supposedly comparing Ernest Manning to Tommy Douglas when they had been premiers. It made Manning sound like the eugentist but then revealed the trick that those views were actually Douglas's.
I don't know if it was from his thesis, but I clearly remember the list of those to be sterilized included Roman Catholic women (specifically French and Irish, IIRC), who were having too many children (because children cause poverty).
Maybe Mr Goldstein can be prevailed upon to send a copy to Kate or to post a copy on the Net?
Makes me think of Obama, his "Science Czar" John Holdren and others.
To be clearer, I think it was sterilizing R.C. women after they had had an allowed quota of children and not stopping them from any procreation at all as for the complete "mental and moral defectives".
I also noted in some of the Douglas critique pages aside from the thesis itself that Tommy is blaming sinful women more for this "problem" and not men.
So hArd to typppe witth ooooone hhhhannd.
Sorry all :)
I'd love to see Tommy Douglas and Jean Vanier in conversation. Vanier, founder of the international L'Arche communities for handicapped adults (http://www.larche.ca/) would be very respectful but very firm in rejecting Douglas' views of so-called "defectives."
IMO, Tommy Douglas' humanity was defective. You had to think like him, I guess, in order not to be a defective.
What astounds me is that Tommy Douglas was, supposedly, a Christian Minister of the Baptist persuasion. I'll bet he and G*d have had a few conversations about the innate dignity of the human person and that TC has now been put straight.
what the hell is "economic democracy"?...
...code word for "legislated extortion and redistribution". gotta love that "democracy". y'know, two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.
also, until recently, conservatives had not much problem with the idea of forced sterilization.
left or right; pick your statism, led by the zeitgeist.
TD's first quote above refers to "economic democracy", which to me is laissez-faire capitalism. Everyone is allowed to vote with their dollars on all goods and services continually updating market price signals for supply and demand decisions. No fascist nor socialist substitute system, pure or blended can replicate that level of efficiency and democracy. When one uses that definition, I like that quote. Canada's great old eugenicist had something completely different in mind, of course.
Today's "settled science on AGW" followers are the modern equivalent to those eugenics nazis' of the thirties. No good will come from their ascendancy.
Yes the CBC's Greatest Canadian was all for Eugenics along with Adolph Hitler of the National Socialists right up until our troops started finding the Death Camps. Then Tommy kind of dropped this topic from his speeches. But he did write his thesis on this for McMaster University in Hamilton Ont. Even tho the MSM and the New Dippers don't like this subject brought up at all.
Victorian era, Social Darwinism, Conservatives, do I need to spell it out again?
"Without his foresight and tenacity we would not have universal, government sponsored health care."
You forgot your /sarc tags, troll-boy. Been to a canuck emerg ward or waited for a specialist or "elective" surgery, lately?
We'll see the misery of socialized medicine if America continues to sleep and gives Maobama free reign to destroy their current system.
Meanwhile, grey lady, tinyurl is your friend :)
mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm
I do not see much difference between yesterday's eugenicist and today's enviro-nut. Both still have the desire to control how many children are allowed. Green eugenicists are predominately but not exclusively on the left (remember Diane Francis). Most of the right-leaning MSM and Wall/Bay Street conservatives have swallowed the AGW scheme hook, line and sinker. The farther up you believe you are on the food chain, the more likely you are to follow fashionable trends.
As a libertarian, I only resent having to pay for the by-choice single welfare mothers and work-shy families. I figure state dependent families would be smaller, by choice, if they were not rewarded for irresponsible behavior. This, of course, makes me a heartless, greedy, mean-spirited neo-con. OTOH, the left's actual culling of the population and regulating children (USSR and China) is rationalized and cheered on.
Social Darwinism is supposed to be a bad thing? Free people free to make their own decisions and to live with the consequences is as good as humanity is ever going to have it.
Sorry, but a severely retarded person in care does not have the right to have children. There is no such "right". These people have sexual urges but no ability to care for themselves nevertheless a child. Douglas was right.
"Sorry, but a severely retarded person in care does not have the right to have children. There is no such "right". These people have sexual urges but no ability to care for themselves nevertheless a child. Douglas was right."
that's a decision better left up to families, who should be taking care of these people, not you and the state.
take care of your own.
There is no such "right". These people have sexual urges but no ability to care for themselves nevertheless a child. Douglas was right.
Neither do a lot of other people. Everyone on welfare, to name one such group. Would you sterilize them as well?
His advocacy of building special camps for subnormals was also ahead of his time.
Posted by: Kate at January 3, 2010 11:13 AM
Special camps for sub-normals. Was he going to build camps for right wing conservatives?
Posted by: T at January 3, 2010 11:17 AM
As far as the camps go, Tommy and the CCF DID build them! As a matter of fact, it was one of the first things they did when elected in 1944. They built farms around Saskatchewan to serve as work camps for the poor.
I know more about old Tommy than anyone alive and I can tell you the man was seriously sick in the head. He implemented every single idea he laid out in his 1933 thesis and then some.
Kate, I will send you a letter inwhich Cam Broten compares Tommy Douglas' ideas to Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany, feel free to post it.
Economic democracy?
Well, you see, we are all equal in terms of the number of votes we get. One each per election.
SO, analagously, economic democracy would be a society in which we all have an equal number of dollars.
Pretty straight forward.
Remember this was before Sesame Street's lessons on "one thing being different from another thing".
And freedom means being free from want! And conservatives are considered hard-hearted bastids who believe that all people are free to sleep under a bridge.
How many people did the socialist/libs put in institutions and sterilize because the so called experts deemed them retarded? During the height of Copenhagen it was common to see the members of the church of Climate Unchanged articulate that we need a global law to regulate the number of children women are allowed to have down to one. The socialists are the most intolerant and unstable people we will ever have to face, their history is bloody and ugly but alas they assert their socialism is a new form of socialism. Instead of sterilizing us gals they'll just legislate how many children we can have.
I feel a particular chill when I read the words of those who decidedly place themselves above everyone else.
Texas canuck,
Take a logic check. Just because defectives want sex, and you want sex, doesn't make you a defective.
Whoa Nellie!
I can hear the "Heritage Minute" committee shushing me as I type.
http://elizabethmcclung.blogspot.com/2006/08/nellie-mcclungs-eugenics-her-shame-and.html
Posted by: heyyoukidsgetoffmylawn at January 3, 2010 5:51 PM
Funny the stuff they forget to teach in school isn't it?
It must be a new year...time again for right wing retards to dig up Tommy Douglas'corpse and beat him up a bit. Not only is it typical of right wingers to attack someone who can't fight back, they tend to conveniently forget that it was Ernest Manning's right wing government that was sterilizing "defectives" well into the 1960's. Sterilization as never practiced in Saskatchewan...but don't let the truth get in the way of right wing revisionism.
Where id the Tommy defenders go? Ran away scared of the truth? Well here is a little more for ya.
The title, “Saskatchewan Mafia” was given to the former CCF government employees who left Saskatchewan and were subsequently employed by various governments across Canada. When the former CCFer’s began to inform their new employers of how they “did things”- like informing businesses it would be in their “best interest” to donate to the CCF - they were soon referred as the “Saskatchewan Mafia”. It was never meant to be a compliment. Actually, I am unaware of ANY instance in which referring to a group of people as a “Mafia” has been anything other than a derogatory reference to a group of unscrupulous thugs.
Over the past several years of researching the CCF/NDP I have found that many writers are trying to cover up or explain an embarrassing past rather than highlight a brilliant legacy. In fact, if it weren’t for the numerous scandals in these books, there would be nothing to write about. Sure, every book covers the rural electrification and the flush toilets, but who really cares? No one remembers and celebrates the governments that brought rural electrification to Manitoba or British Columbia or Alberta, that would be absurd. Although, I do have to admit that I think of the NDP every time I flush...
Ghost,
You are correct re Manning. The eugenics legislation remained on the books in Alberta until 1972.
However, Douglas's views are certainly part of the public record even though he never implemented the legislation.
However, Douglas's views are certainly part of the public record even though he never implemented the legislation.
Posted by: djb at January 3, 2010 6:47 PM
Didn't he? In his thesis he writes of having to sterlize a young girl "for the protection of the community".