Tornado To The Rescue

Too funny! All those lumps of coal us Luddites got in our stockings are needed after all.

Syncro

When it comes to any means of transportation, having an internal self-contained power source is far preferable to relying on external sources of power. Why the UK has decided to go with powering their trains electrically is a mystery to me. This results in a system wherein a single point of failure can bring down the whole system whereas if one has self-powered locomotives one needs a great many more points of failure to bring down the system. In the current situation the power stations are still operational but weather conditions have prevented trains from getting power.

Whoever was responsible for designing this system erred far too much in the direction of optimism. Given that weather events such as the one currently being experienced by the UK are going to be far more common during the next 20-30 years I wonder if steam locomotives are going to make a comeback. Yes, they're inefficient and smoky but they have a much longer history of getting someone from A to B than electric trains do.

Quick!--Someone calculate the carbon footprint of that coal-powered train. :)

yessss!!!!!!

I only ever saw a steam locomotive under way once.

I was at an auto recyclers poking around when I heard that characteristic CHUFF CHUFF. I knew it could be only one thing since there was a rail line behind the recycling yard. what a sight.

I heard that characteristic CHUFF CHUFF. I knew it could be only one thing...
~curious_george

You should go to the Calgary Stampede some time and see the old steam powered agricultural tractors.
They go CHUFF CHUFF too.

As to Sir Winston's speculation about electicity being less valuable that steam power, he didn't live to see the internet and know the power it gives masses of citizens to overcome the mendacity of the various levels of government.

One steam engine used to do the work of 3 or 4 diesel-electric engines. The railway grades in the mountains were designed for steam engines, and are actually too steep for diesels. Many grades need an extra engine, on standby.

I doubt steam engines would be less environmentally friendly than diesels. Their drawback is having to stop for water. I think they could only make about 20 miles, between fillups. Maybe someone knows a little more about this?

Steam engine technology pretty well stalled, when internal combustion engines came along. I'd like to see some work done in this field. The capacity for diverse fuel sources is almost endless.

I've often wondered why marine nuclear technology has never been considered for land transportation. There are millions of tons moving around, at sea, under nuclear power.

Take into consideration that with the convenience of electricity, we gained enormous amounts of free time to work our assess off to pay for the conveniences of electricity.

I guess the question is ... what would your rather do, ride a horse, pull your water from a well and live by candle light, or get a job that you hate for forty years.

AFAIK the industrial revolution brought about the meritocracy of academic institutions to feed industry with labour but, unfortunately, the nurseries nowadays think/say that the're running the show; hence, human-caused GW/Ozone holes and other hair-brained UN carpet bags ...

In Vancouver, BC, in my beloved Kitsilano district, we used to have a steam train chuffing through the neighbourhood at around 1am. It would have to whistle at each street crossing, of which there were many. About two-thirds of the time the whistle was ordinary, and we slept through it without difficulty. But the other third -- ah! -- the engineer was a maestro (and had probably watched the old movie 'The Ghost Train' way too many times). His touch on the whistle was magnificent, varying from mournful to melancholic to nostalgic. Always, always worth waking up to.
Now long gone. Sigh!

"he didn't live to see the internet and know the power it gives masses of citizens to overcome the mendacity of the various levels of government."

The 'information revolution' for Joe Citizen likely help bring about the downfall of the UN-academe COP15 ...

Supposedly one of the drawbacks of steam locomotives is that the tractive effort comes in pulses that vary in strength according to the position of the crank pin on the drivers. When the steam cylinder piston is at the very top or bottom of its stroke, it can deliver very little force. Midway through the stroke, with the crank pin full up or full down, the tractive force is greatest.

What this means is that the steam locomotive jerks on the rails in the course of accelerating a load, so that wear and tear on the tracks is greater than that afforded by a Diesel-electric locomotive. Steam locomotives require more fuel and a great deal more maintenance than do Diesel-electric, and they give rise to more maintenance-of-way expenses, too.

Not meaning to disparage the beauty and romance of steam locomotives, but there were sound economic reasons for their abandonment by the railways of most Western countries. I suspect if we were to build steam-powered locomotives today, they would be hybrids, essentially a small edition of a coal-fired utility plant on one or more cars, feeding electrical power to the lead loco and to remote units mid-train.

What's up with British engineering? A little snow and ice, and their trains seize up?

Toronto's "subway" has many stretches where it is above ground, and I don't ever recall it being out of service because of ice and snow. Union walkouts, yes, individual train troubles, yes, but the whole service? Except for the two massive blackouts I remember, it hasn't happened.

How many polar bears did that baby drowned?

"the power [the internet] gives masses of citizens to overcome the mendacity of the various levels of government."

And how's that working for us so far?

Imagine the consequences when everyone has electric cars and a power failure prevents them from recharging their batteries overnight

(I mean, compared to an age when a discontented citizenry spoke their mind with firearms?)

a good point Kate...

Less bloodshed and more informed serfs...so to speak.

Syncro

Bloody awesome!

Thanksgiving 1975, Mill Cove N.S., after a nasty storm knocked out the coast road and all electric power, my dad cooked potatoes and baloney over a blowtorch. An important life lesson, that: never get caught without an alternative, in that case a Coleman and some naptha. Sooner or later civilization throws you a curveball. Or as I learned living in Winnipeg, there are two kinds of Canadians: those with sand, road flares, a first aid kit and a shovel in their trunk - and cold, stranded ones.

Now, I think I'll celebrate this victory for hydrocarbons by throwing another couple of chunks of nice, renewable complex carbohydrates into my high-efficiency tree-burning fireplace.

Mmmmm. Waaaaaaarm.

"(I mean, compared to an age when a discontented citizenry spoke their mind with firearms?)"

ummmmm....less rights and freedoms....more government/beaucratic intrusion...more nanny state...need I go on?

"(I mean, compared to an age when a discontented citizenry spoke their mind with firearms?)"

The Internet has given government reason to hire armies of Internet techs and huge numbers of people to deal with all the input.

The old style input (muskets etc) dramatically reduces the number of government layabouts by giving them high speed lead poisoning.

The old method is greener and more efficient.

traction is a function of weight. the steam engines pulsing power function would hammer up the tracks if you want to get up to the power of a set of diesel engines in series. I dont thing running several steam engines in a series was practical with water and coal usage.
stream turbines were used to try to overcome this but they werent robust enough at the time to adapt to tracks. deisels have advanced alot since they took over from steam and advanced machining has allowed them to get huge so they now compete with steam even on ships.

drilling rigs were steam powered at the discovery of Leduc and diesel had taken over by Pembina about 8 years later.

When it's Tiananmen Square time, we won't actually have to meet in a square, we can organize on the net.

On the other hand, when it is time to meet in a square, it worked fairly well for the Rally for Canada meetings last year around this time.

Abe

The internet has provided a platform for the common man to speak.

The information/technology revolution is every bit as significant as the industrial revolution.

Serfs that surf.

Syncro

well i dunno dp

the union pacific? designed and built the 'big boy' to get the coal up a certain grade outta wyomin...up to the 50's...you have to see a picture of a 'big boy' to understand why they were the behemoths of steam rail..
they were designed to get 3500 ton trains up that grade...

nowadays GE for eg make the dash 9...4400 plus horsepower and dead right adhesion ...i just ran a 5 unit consist(only 3 on line) of potentialy 000 HP for an 11000 ton train which is average tonnage these days...all you need is 1/2 HP per ton of train to just about climb anything.

any further elucidation pls direct to my fireman Francis.....he LOVES coal fired trains he does.

wayne R.....

i try to inject a little 'soul' into my whistling at crossings...it CAN be done even though all the gew gaws are so 'moderne'.....

And how's that working for us so far?
(I mean, compared to an age when a discontented citizenry spoke their mind with firearms?)
~Kate

If a single individual resists agents of the state with firearms, that individual is killed by the state's agents and then we get to talk about what a crazy he was on blogs like this, after being primed about what a scumbag he was by the MSM in full on character assassination mode, of course.

Example: Mayerthorpe.

In olden times, citizens who had a wish to resist the state usually met to organize in churches.
Today we have the internet.

So far, less of us are dead, but that's just a guess, I don't know for sure.

http://yourrailwaypictures.com/CPRsteamengines/

Pictures of CPR steam including multi-loco (especially needed in the Rockies).

AFAIK rail predominantly used the least efficient single-expansion reciprocating steam engines as opposed to the most efficient triple-expansion engines of marine usage; the Titanic (Olympic class) used the most efficient (reversible) triple-expansion piston engines for the outer propellers, scavaging the remaining steam for a fourth stage (non-reversible) turbine driving the centre propeller.

Kate asked "And how's that working for us so far?"

Well, the AGW fraud was brought out into the open through the use of the Internet. It may be too soon to see where this will end up. Supposedly the Soviet Union was partially brought down through the medium of the Internet.

guess saying in here that it is quite probably another example of design failure due to engineering arrogance could be less than popular:-)))

there are three things that drive advancement, need, war, and failure, with out these we would be stuck with slow or no advances. Also, if engineers designed perfect systems it would be impossible for anyone to make hats large enough to fit their heads:-))))

WUWT? Steam's up.
...-

"tallbloke (16:47:23) :

Proper engineering. My friend Dave Wilson was one of the last tender men on the Southern Railway. He and the driver broke the record for the Penzance-London run with the last steam train before it was withdrawn from service, just to prove the point.

Then he wrote a guide to the preserved steam railways of Britain while we studied together at Leeds in the ’80’s. He sent me a first edition copy with a private joke written in the front cover:

Time and tables ; The essence of Philosophy.

While we studied the history and philosophy of science, we would often ’sit in’ on spontaneous debates in the Philosophy department foyer. Many of these would revolve around the nature of time, and our understanding of matter. “take this table for example” became a standing joke. :-)

The head of the University finance department was heard to say to the head of the physics department who had just asked for an expensive piece of experimental equipment;

“Why can’t you be more like the philosophy department? All they ask me for is paper and pens… and waste paper baskets.”"

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/25/steam-train-rescues-stranded-passengers-in-britain-where-electric-trains-failed/#comments

cal2 I dont think running several steam engines in a series was practical with water and coal usage.
I have some old photos of 2 & 3 steam engines in series going through the Rockies. Punch Max Jacquiard into Google & look at some of his magnifient paintings. i.e Triple Header Over the Kicking Horse (pass) etc.

richard v

impractical how ?

oncet you have them rolling and have crested the grade what's the dif ?

as in oncet you're on the flat those bad boys will roll a long time on sheer momentum..THEN they don't need any energy poured into them...

must ask some old rails how they made up a three engine staem consist before one had any way of controlling the other two from the head end...

musta had a fireman on each other unit responding to hand signals from the head end..i guess..

John begley - read my post - I was replying to cal2. Suggest you also read his.

I think I can, I think I can.

The Little Engine That Could

I thought I could.

Like the sound of Chuff, Chuff?

Steam Tractor Plowing Demonstration

(my video)

I caught up with Engine 2816 in downtown Calgary just as it was leaving.

Engine 2816

Thank you Monty for the CPR link. Have been a steam buff all my life. I was just a wee one when the last steam left Edmonton in the early 60's. One of the few things in life truly built to last.

one of my favourite books in my own library is.
"The Engineers Encyclopaedia " containing a history and application of steam with its Application on Land and Sea" copyright 1888, mine is second edition 1889

its last chapter is a triple expansion engine with a condensor , a stationary engine used for running pumps to drain the subways of NY, about as much power as one can extract from high pressure steam. almost drops to atmospheric pressure on the last cylinder. Weight limits most locomotive steam to double expansion. the third stage is always a doosey.

Rail also used less-efficient fire-tube boilers versus the more efficient water-tube design of marine boilers.

Knowledge is good. Its the information in the hands of certain individuals thats dangerous. Iran anyone?
Like guns science is a tool. The wheeler using the data for evil is the problem.
JMO

I wasn't around for the steam era but having hired on the railway in 1974, I spent the first 15 years of my career listening to nothing but stories from that period in railroad history. The main reason for the swift downfall of the steam locomotive in North America was economics. The ability to operate more than one loco from a single throttle and air brake doomed the steamers. There were many instances of multiple steam consists known as doubleheaders or triple headers or whatever. Unfortunately each steam engine required an engineer and fireman to operate. On the other hand, every diesel unit has a receptacle on each end that is connected by a heavy electrical cord known mainly as a "jumper" or MU cable. That is what permits diesels to operate in multiple and for many years they have also operated in robot service with the mid train or tail end power controlled remotely by one engineer.
As for the British, they were a bit slower to abandon steam and when they did they maintained a mothball fleet for many years. Even then, there were many steam enthusiasts who kept steam alive in many places in Britain. When I first rode British Rail in the mid 70's they had a combination of diesel and electric power. I thought that it was highly ironic that they had to resort to steam power in the recent storm. But then again my experiences with North American locomotives has been that the development and testing of new equipment always seems to be done in some warm place like California. They send it up to Canada and guess what, the first blizzard rolls in and everything starts going cows*it.

I grew up at the tail end of the steam age, for trains. Steam locomotives (love that word a sense of power) were burning oil at the end and not coal. At least some of them were in southern Ontario where I lived. I'd go up to the station at age 5 and watch folks go to work on commuter trains to Toronto, just to watch the locomotives chuffing into the station, blowing steam off that raised the women's skirts.

I worked on a "steamship" on the Great Lakes in the early 70's, we burned bunker C to fire the boiler on the triple-expansion steam engine. Max power was 900 BHP and drove that old circa 1929, 2000 ton "canal boat" at 10 knots, throttle wide open! When we blew the whistle, we'd drop 50 lbs of pressure on the boiler!

We still use those old railroad engine boilers to heat today's oilfield drilling rigs in the winter. Not unusual to read the year stamps on some of them "1917" or "1935".