When A "Stop" Sign Just Isn't Enough

They're Somalis...they should be tried under "Somali Law"!
Heh!

This is a legacy of the Liberals. If a "stop" sign does not work, we use the catch and release program.

By a "Canadian War Ship" you say? You must mean a "Canadian Peace-keeping ship" - no? A war ship would have blasted the bastards out of the water -which is what should have happened.

Wouldn't want to waste an expensive Harpoon missle, but what's wrong with a few 127 mm shells through the pirates' hull?

Do that a few times, and cost/benefit analysis of entering the pirate business would likely change a bit.

I hope we gave them a hot meal, a warm shower and refueled their speed boat before sending them on their way. Sheesh!

Canadian cops generally check for a valid fishing license and beer on your breath.

It seems likely that these "pirates" are providing cover for more nefarious activities by powerful organizations which give them the protection they would otherwise lack. If every ship carried five or six pit bulls ready to greet those climbing over the rail, the problem would disappear instantly.

So what is the point of catching them at all? Under Canadian law, couldn't the Canadian Navy now be charged with unlawful confinement?

Well I'd release them too . . . after sinking their ship.

Sharks need to eat and bullets are expensive.

What? We didn't offer them refugee status and Canadian citizenship. How un-Canadian!

Why I will absolutely never, EVER fight in the Canadian military. Period, and I don't give a crap who hits Canada, or how hard.

When a country struts around preening like a moral peacock in a bad-a$$ neighbourhood, and then goes all p***y when the real men show up, you deserve what you're gonna get. Plain and simple. See, this is what happens when politicians don't fear the military. The Canadian military is largely to blame. This is the price you pay for "nice". The Turkish military has the right idea on this score. They understand they have a strong commitment to the survival of the Turkish nation. The politicians can f**k around all they want till they hit the boundary, then the military will step in and restore sanity.

Ultimately if your military have convinced themselves they have no rights nor responsibility vis-a-vis the stability and viability of the nation, then they have become an expensive liability, and need to be replaced.

Canada needs a purge, or a coup d'etat, or Canada is going down with the lesbian ship. There are no other alternatives in reality.

Look at it this way, if your politicians don't fear your military, how on earth do you expect your enemies to fear it?

On a more serious note, I am reading pretty good things about the Somai pirates. They don't appear to go in for torture, and murder, etc. So if the economy gets much worse, I am thinking of heading over there and taking up piracy. A year or two of work, and I can retire. I just have to avoid the US military, although with king Hussein in charge, that'll probably soon be no longer a problem, and if any other military catches you, apply for asylum!

Seriously, a millionaire in a couple of years. I like the sound of that! A serious second career ...

In all fairness to the Canadian warship, its not so much Canadian law, but the United Nations Declaration on the Laws at Sea (or some such blarney) that prevents these pirates from being prosecuted.

To do anything the UN has to make changes to the proper laws so that these thugs can be prosecuted/engaged.

Even, if Canada wanted to, I think it would be pretty hard to prosecute them under Canadian law. The incident happened outside Canadian waters/jurisdiction, and involved no Canadians, so the Criminal Code does not apply. Plus, you have to go through all that legal mumbo-jumbo (collection of evidence, safeguarding of evidence, witnesses, etc) that makes up our legal system. Pretty hard to do in a situation like this.

Note also that the Dutch also captured some of these guys and were forced to let them go. So its just not the Canadian Navy that has a problem.

That's ok bcf, we were never interested in your services anyway.

LJB - I learned as a teen-ager that it is always easier to do what you want to do and ask for forgiveness after.

Our Navy should have sunk the bastards and said "woops - my bad - sooooorryyyy".

What is the Somali Pirate limit now?

Thanks for your support folks....sometimes you armchair generals PISS me off! Try walking a mile in our shoes before you shoot off your uninformed mouths...you guys are no better than those left wing A$$HATS!

I hope the Somali pirates don't sue us for torture or something.

What's this "prosecute" nonsense. The key is in the interpretation of foiling an attack. Imminent collision; all engines st..st..st..stop! Oops.

Posted by: Canadian Soldier at April 19, 2009 11:29 AM

Such is the expertise of those that have never BTDT.

Canadian Soldier - loosen your bullets buddy. No one is knocking the Canadian military here. What you are reading here is some frustration with the pirate situation and the general lack of progress in dealing with it.

Our navy gets ahold of one of their ships and its "catch and release" We know that we are not allowed to sink them and that is what our frustration is all about - and - we also know that it is not the fault of the navy.

Another thing you might consider is how many of the bloggers on this site are huge supporter of our military - me included.

Feel better? BTW - thanks for your valuable service.

Nobody's blaming the rank and file in military, CS.

But, just as we do when politicians endanger us through protection of criminals who would attack us in our homes, we have an obligation to identify and criticize policy that empowers our enemies abroad.

That would be the armchair generals/admirals Soldier, not you.

I apologize for my rant...but it irks me when people spout off....the ROE of the Navy in this instance is not to kill maim and destroy...it is to stop. We have to follow our orders, or we would be no better then the scum we are fighting. Frustration has been there for me on many many UN tours over my career. Nothing like watching Serbs soldiers beat helpless people and being told to stand down!

And...I know that you folks have nothing but the utmost respect for those of us who serve, for that I thank you.

This is getting to be a pathetic joke!

...if not outright @#%&#@&# embarrassing.

TimR...

As of Friday April 17th, they could very well be Canadian Citizens. It is PMSH new strategy to take over the world.

http://tabaker.blogspot.com/2009/04/conquering-world.html

Canadian Soldier @ 11:49 AM, from my perspective you have no need to apologize. When you see a silly post and respond to the silly poster, you’ll get the support you deserve. I also thank you for your service.

Soldier,

We all appreciate that soldiers follow orders.

No doubt there were more than a few of them wishing they could have opened up on the pirates' ship.

That the Canadian military is hamstrung by the progressive dominated political class is what has folks here irked.

We want our soliers to be soldiers.

Seems to me that the Canadian Navy has forgotten all the Lessons learned by the Canadian Army in places like Rwanda and Bosnia...

I would never criticize the military, who have to follow the orders given them by their governments,NATO, the UN, etc. Several members of my family are members of the Canadian Forces.

But, may I suggest that in future, maybe they could get one of the most junior cooks on the ship to fire those "warning shots".

They might not be quite as accurate as the regular gunners, and accidents DO happen.;-)

Here's a good online summary of the options:
http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2632
None of which addresses the point being made that NATO, and other warships patrolling, have no real authority to use deadly force. That's the problem; the politicians/Lawyers have emasculated them. Look at the conundrum the US captain faced. He couldn't take action until the President said so...

I have a question for the armchair admirals here.

What would you done with them?

No smarta$$ answers.

Well, at least its better than the British system where the capture pirates could claim asylum as refugees in the UK.

AJ - why do you want to know what I would do with them? After all I'm just an armchair admiral. I'm insignificant. My opinion doesn't matter.

Except for two things AJ - I vote in every election and I pay my taxes. Oh - one more thing - I live in a democracy.

I thought that Kenya had agreed to prosecute captured pirates. I probably haven't been reading enough on this issue.

Hey, were those AK47 registered?

How about the RPG anti-tank grenade launchers?

Quick check to see if they need a social worker to help them out

Just saying

Fox aired an interview this morning re an item under development that is deployed from a chopper. Basically it is a net fired from a canister that spreads in front of the pirate's boat and fouls the prop. I guess I would worry about the chopper being fired upon by the pirates. Of course a deployment by a gunship would be more interesting.

If it were me, I would have the ship being followed by a pirate's boat try pumping some bunker oil overboard and fire a flare gun into the slick when they sailed into it.

Curious if that would work. No navy involment and "Nope, never saw any pirates on the entire transit past Somalia. Did see some shark activity in our wake, though."

We don't make the rules.....we just play the game....
Those who vilified our airbourne for that incident in Somalia....just were ignorant of the frustration involved with operating under silly PC ROE. $hit happens.......
Junior cooks miss alot.....the professionals pull off the best accidents.

I am at a loss here as I can't understand why the Navy wouldn't ask the obvious question and I am sure they have "What do we do with them when we capture them?" If the answer from the UN or whom ever is in charge of the operation "Oh, just let them go."

Wouldn't the military chief of staff here in Canada say "Then what's the *%&#$ point then!" and order his navy personnel to stand down until there is a clear ROE that is not simply catch and release.

Eeerrr.... AtlanticJim: shot the bastards down, and then claimed they were firing on you. Yeah the treacherous, treasonous bastards in the CBC will kick up quite a fuss, but the point is, the message would have been sent: be a pirate at your peril.

BTW, can I take that statement that you don't need my services to the bank? Thanks, absolved in perpetuity of having to tell the draft officer to go f**k himself!

Incidentally, that was not what your military kept telling me for about 10 years. They seemed quite keen on having the counter-insurgency experience of an old Cold War warrior on board. At the time, I sensed Canada was not a country I really felt would be well-served by my experience, and I certainly didn't (and even more now will not) wish to serve in a military whose politicians despise me, and whose citizens are dismissive of my efforts at best, and downright dangerously subversive at worst.

Good luck in Afghanistan, BTW. With the attitudes of your political classes, and the stubborn desire of your urban sophisticates to lose this one, I don't see how you can possibly win. Does the Canadian military even know what victory looks like?

If not, you better have a serious think, starting with your military's attitude to your subversive political class... and culminating with what defeat of the Taliban looks like, never mind a handful of Somali boat-herders...

Maybe they were all "Young Offenders" and had to be released to the custody of their parents...

Canadian Soldier, we are not disparaging you. It is the ridiculous politicians that we are against. I myself served for 35 years and can understand the frustrations.

Oh, c'mon, I'm sure they were given nsaty warning letters, not to do it again.

That and remember, it's double time served against the sentence.....

The whole thing is incomprehensible. Surely the pirates resisted. Of course they did.

Airline hijackings ended when it became the norm for the hijackers always to resist, and therefore, most regrettably, be in need of termination.

I notice that the Canadian and US forces don't seem to be capturing many nonuniformed combatants these days ... may the Navy be quick learners.

Atlantic Jim...

I have a couple of posts on my blog about how I would handle it...

Armchair Admiral wise.

bcf, just a note from another one who as put in his 30 years.... advocating that the military overthrow the democratically elected government puts you in the Hugo Chavez league of tin-pot dictatorship wannabes. Nice company you keep. Perhaps you'd feel more comfortable on rabble.ca

Oh, and by the way, Under the National Defence Act, what you are advocating is sedition, chum:

Seditious Offences

Advocating governmental change by force

82. Every person who publishes or circulates any writing, printing or document in which is advocated, or who teaches or advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of force as a means of accomplishing any governmental change within Canada is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.

R.S., c. N-4, s. 72.

The Canadian Forces, being an honorable, well-disciplined and professional force, obeys the laws of the country it defends. There is no grey area here, this is black and white.

Now p**s off, before I go medieval on your sorry, seditious a$$

If these are the ROE, then the whole thing is just batshit crazy. Pull our ships out, and tell NATO and the UN to fsck themselves.

For more legal details see the "Update" and "Upperdate" at this post at "The Torch":

"Wimping out with pirates"

Mark
Ottawa

Whatever happened to good old common sense and logic?

In the olden days, when we had such lovely folks with deadly weapons going around shooting at everybody, stealing their stuff, kidnpping them and killing them, well, we didn't twiddle our thumbs and worry about "international law" and "civil rights"... we dealt with such lovely folks by terminating them, which is what they were clearly asking for, for they started it.

If we treat them nicely, they'll just continue to behave as they are, and worse.

It's only going to get worse.

Everything will, as long as the Free World doesn't do the only thing that will stop these evildoers. Gotta use our heads.

Gotta start blowing 'em out of the water. Food for the fish.

Oh, I'm sure the Left will be shocked at my saying this, so I'll just address them pre-epmtively: Up yers, Lefties, 'k? You want to go and make nice with 'em? Go on ahead, jump into the water and swim to 'em in "peace". Don't come crying to me when those biped polar bears bite chunks out of you, thinking you're lunch...

After reading some of the posts in here, I shake my head....it is easy to pick out the Rambo wanna be's who have never served...if you had, truth, duty, valour, honour, integrity, service to country before self, would have some meaning to you. It is sad that some posters in here would condone murder by the CF and call it an accident. There is a huge difference between weapons free in a combat situation and executing people.

How do we know you're a real soldier, "Canadian Soldier"? Just had to wonder aloud.

Hope you're not saying I was recommending "execution".

It's not "execution" when they're shooting at you with military-type weapons and you shoot back at 'em. Besides, who started it, eh?