Only 47 windmills to power a household?
(more at the link).A real-world test performed by the Dutch province of Zeeland (a very windy place) confirms our earlier analysis that small windmills are a fundamentally flawed technology (test results here, pdf in Dutch). Twelve of these much hyped machines were placed in a row on an open plain (picture above). Their energy yield was measured over a period of one year (April 1, 2008 - March 31, 2009), the average wind velocity during these 12 months was 3.8 meters per second (slightly higher than average). Three windmills broke.
h/t Tomax7
wooden shoes
wooden head
wouldnt listen.
This is based on some very low power consumption values. The figure given for the average Dutch household is 3400 Kwh/year! My average consumption is on the order of 17,000 Kwh/year or 5 Dutch households. I still plan on installing an electric kiln in the next 1-2 years and this will really increase those power consumption figures.
How long is it going to take the moonbats to realize that wind power is only good for remote locations far from a source of power? What we need is more nuclear power and the sooner the better.
These are the hobby turbines marketed to Green Types who think the air whistling between their ears is the wind. Consequently they think the wind is always blowing.
Not much info here, such as number of days with Zero output, Average 24 Hour outputs by hour, etc.
We did not stop using wind mills because the wind stopped, it was because it never was blowing when we really needed it...like now, a good stiff breeze of common sense and responsible leadership would be nice.
Kate McMilian's war on wind energy is something I just can't comprehend. If you ever needed another example of how this woman is completely off her rocker, here you have it. There are many cases of unsubsidized, private, capitalist enterprises making money off of the wind energy sector. It's the epitome of conservatism at every stop. Yet, because it happens to reconcile the interests of capitalists and environmentalists in certain cases, she can't handle it. In Kate's convoluted world there isn't one shade of gray. Is wind energy perfect?! Hell no, but neither is anything in life (another tenet of conservatism). I don't know what on earth she's eating in her cereal every morning to make her think that its not real electricity unless it comes from a non renewable.
@charles Please give us an example of unsibsidized, private, capitalist enterprises making money off the wind energy sector.
They forgot to line up Suzuki and Gore in front of the windmills, then they would have had gail force winds from all the hot air.
charles: calm down, Kate hasn't declared war on wind mills, just the loonies like you who say that they are the solution (or part thereof) to an imagined crisis.
Charles, Kate's "war" on wind energy is just bringing pointing out the facts namely that wind power is a colossaly expensive means of producing tiny amounts of electricity. Wind power has its place in remote locations that are too far from a power line to make running wires economically feasible. I'd bet that unless there is a problem in bringing in gasoline it would be far cheaper to install a gasoline powered generator than a windmill/generator.
The best form of renewable energy is nuclear energy. Hyperion's uranium hydride reactor can't go supercritical and, if thorium is included in the fuel mixture, it will produce more nuclear fuel than it consumes hence this is a form of renewable energy as there is far more thorium than we could use in centuries. This is the direction we should be going and wind power will be viewed as one of the inexplicable follies that humans sometimes engage in by future generations.
Charles - I know a couple brothers that spent a huge amount of money on a used wind turbine from Holland, and wish they left it there.
Somebody has to have the guts to cut through the "feel good factor ".
The total inefficacy of wind turbines is well known in the power industry.
Aside from technical aspects - fragile, unreliable; the environmental disaster - use not so nice materials, can seriously harm bird life; they are an economic disaster in all but the most unusual circumstances.
Aside from which each and every wind plant needs, for modern purposes - an equivalent alternate source so that the power continues o flow without interruption.
Double the investment for the same amount of power - there's a recipe for economic efficiency.
charles, as another commenter already posted and as someone who has been studying the economics and viability of renewable energy for over 20 years, i would ask you to please name just one profitable example of wind power.
"...wind power will be viewed as one of the inexplicable follies that humans sometimes engage in by future generations."
Loki
Just like the massive hydrogen filled dirigeables (Zeppelins) of the 20th century.
"Oh the humanity!"
The Dutch are known for their engineering; the general population takes an interest in technology. Three years ago my Dutch relatives told me of the failure of small windmill technology, it was already common knowledge on the street. It's too bad really, those of us who live on the Canadian bald prairie would like to do something good with that #$%*! wind that never seems to stop. But there's wishing and there's science....I take science everytime. Now I'll just go and watch the russian thistle blow across the field.
Opps! I should of elaborated more by saying:
Just like the massive hydrogen filled dirigeables (Zeppelins) of the 20th century who were totally dependent on wind velocity and direction for take off, travel and landing. Basically totally unreliable for long term air transportation on a commercial scale.
A few years ago, well quite a lot actually, when I was stationed in Moose Jaw, my father came out my way to visit and also to meet a gentleman in regards to some Model T parts.
This gentleman had an old farm house, maybe some 600 square feet, which was then used just for over nighters/weekends when he was restoring old tractors and other vehicles. Nice workmanship.
Anyhow, there was this little windmill atop of the house, maybe a 12 inch diameter prop. I enquired about it and it was used to charged 12 volt DC batteries, so that one or two lights could be used at night back in the days of the depression. That was the only electricity to be had for many years.
Using that experience as a basis, I cannot see windmill technology maintaining a modern day household with all its gadgets to the same level as hydro/coal/nuclear produced electricity.
To RH Terry Tory and others. I never do this but today I cannot contain myself: You use the phrase "should of" because that's what you think you hear people say. The phrase is actually "Should have" as in "I should have had a V8" or "I should have said.." This particular mistake is occuring with annoying frequency. Sorry Kate, I just want to make the world a better place! ;)
If you wanted to power the city of Regina by wind power, it would take the land mass of Prince Edward Island to house all the turbines. No thank you, I would rather grow food on that land.
RL
sorry that should be the city of Toronto.
RL
charles --I think she's just trying to lump it into some peoples heads (greens,polititions,etc) that wind power isnt this magic solution that "evil conservatives" have overlooked or suppressed.
I've lurked at huffpost,treehugger,dailykos,etc and witnessed brainiacs coming up with all sorts of windpower schemes, powering trains and whatnot.
Besides I live in one of the epicenters of the green movement, there are Global warming citizens meetings over here! The same people obsessing about GW are against Windmills and Hydro power.
Listen to the Dutch chuck ,they know about windpower.
charles.. are you just trying to prove the fanatical devotion of AGWers and environmentalists to completely unrealistic expectations of salvation via technology 1000 years in the making that still does not work?
This is why the polls are slipping against people who are proponents of "Clean Energy" it is because people like me explain the facts, not describe the dream.
I am for any alternative energy that meets three criteria... cheap (no production subsidies),reliable (90% Availability), secure (the sites can be protected).
Wind fails all tests.
If you wanted to power the city of Regina by wind power, it would take the land mass of Prince Edward Island to house all the turbines. No thank you, I would rather grow food on that land.
You do know both can be done at the same time?
I knew those energy balls were a joke when I first saw them. You NEED large blades to make decent power. The larger the blade, the more economy of scale works in your favor.
- Skystream (10,742 euro) : 2,109 kWh per year or an average power output of 240.7 watts
Let's do some simple math here. I picked the most efficient($$$ wise) wind turbine.
10,742 X 1.59 = $17,079 CAD
2,109 KWh X .06 / KWh = $126.54 CAD
That's right, less then 1% return on investment for the best one!
You're better off investing in AIG, or maybe Chrysler.
.
Charles ..... ? Are you still there .... ?
Dork!
.
Personally, we Americans are in trouble with BO's new AGW Czar. I swear, this 1st Black American President thinks we are still in 1918 Russia.
But allan, doesn't everyone want to spend 17 grand to generate 120 bucks worth of power?
It's only 141 years to recoup the initial layout.
I think by then Chrysler stock might be worth something.
I'll make everyone here a fantastic deal. See I can get these units in quantity. Give me 17k and I'll "invest" into these units. I can get them at half price.
I'll send you the $250 in electricity cost every year that these things make. No questions asked!
Just don't inquire about how I got them, or where they are.
Charles,one question,did ever hear of these companys?Jacobs,Winpower,Molitor,Beatty and some others that I cant think of.The first two were the most popular wind generator companys,the others pumped water.The great plains of North America were covered with these wind machines,my father had two.A wind electric,which people called them at the time,and a windmill to pump water.They worked good when the wind blew.The wind electric was backed up by a gasoline powered generator,first a Delco then an Onan,and batteries to store the power.The power was 32 volt DC and the batteries were 16 2 volt batteries.Large glass batteries that took up a space 7 feet long and two tiers high.Eight on each level.With this power system there were NO electric stoves, electric water heaters,electric heaters of any kind and NO electric refrigerators.Kerosene powered SERVEL refrigerators were what people used or ice boxes.Mother washed clothes with an electric washing machine on MONDAY.The back up engine HAD to run when the washing machine ran.We children learned at a very young age to TURN OUT THE LIGHTS!As an aside,Mr.Carefoot from Arcola Sask. built and sold wind generators to local farmers in the area.These machines generated more power with less wind that any other wind generator of the day.The windmill was backed up by an International single cylinder motor that pumped the water for the livestock when the wind did'nt blow,or by hand when the engine would'nt start.We lived in southern SASK and one year the wind did'nt blow enough in the month of January to generate electricity or pump the water.Try starting a hand started engine when its 40 below day after day.If you think for one second that this was a cheap method of providing electrity,then somebody must still be using the system.Take a drive,you wont find any.Even in the old order Mennonite settlements in Ontario where they use electricity to produce products,but not in their homes,engine driven generators provide the power during the day and are shut down at night.
I suggest that we put wind farms in the proximity of tailings ponds(around them). This should prevent any ducks from attempting to land on these ponds.
IMO the envioro-ring-leaders are so enthusiastic about wind power because they know it's completely unfeasible; therefore, it will never happen. Knowing this means that they can continue to complain and demonize every other type of energy with no end in sight. “Live to fight another day”(on your dime) is the real agenda. Sure the useful idiots believe a wind powered world is possible, but who listens to idiots?
If there ever was any doubt about the motivations of the aforementioned people, they’re stance on zero greenhouse gas emitting nuclear plants puts that to rest. Surely Mother Gaia is worth the risk of storing spent nuclear fuel until we can find a way to properly dispose of it.
Nettie: should've
2. It would take more than the land mass of PEI to power TO and even then not too reliably. As for PEI's utility as farm land - to quote a prof I had who was recognized worldwide as one of the foremost xperts on potato production "the best thing that could happen to the Canadian potato industry would be to make PEI a national park". As exporters of bacterial ring rot the islands seed potato producers were the black plague rats of the industry.
Ahh Charles, you can lead an ecochondriac to water, but he'll assume it's neocon koolaid and die of thirst anyhow.
"There are many cases of unsubsidized, private, capitalist enterprises making money off of the wind energy sector"
If there are so many, how about an example? That really shouldn't be so hard, should it? It wouldn't be if it were true. I mean examples beyond wind powered pumps to water cattle and the like.
It's actually appropriate that the Netherlanders were the ones who conducted this experiment. First, it was the Netherlanders who actually harnessed wind energy (remember those picturesque windmills on postcards) on a large scale to "hold the sea back". Second, if there was any country that could make it work, it would have been them due to their engineering innovation, geographic location, high cost of energy and historical dependence on wind energy. At least now, we have the empirical data that shows that small wind turbines are fairly useless...this is a fact--which can be used to dispel the "greenies".
What I'd like to see is one or two of those 15-20m turbines on the tops of hills in Newfoundland(where there is always a wind--and I'm not exaggerating). Since many little towns in the outports have very few people and/or houses...this may be a perfect solution to the huge electrical costs in Nfld.
~~favill~~
Everytime I see one of those contraptions, the thought of the massive underground concrete footing comes to mind. Not so eco friendly on second thought.
Lorrie Goldstein hit one again- What Suzuki didn't Tell you.
"If there are so many, how about an example? "
I googled offgrid blog, found a few people using offgrid 100%, here's one:
http://wretha.blogspot.com/
She has a special offer for NRA memberships at her site and a few pictures of her West Texas spread. Too clever by half to ask for profitable application of wind energy, the point is self-sufficiency for rural people, not necessarily creating economies of scale and selling for profit. If you have wind, and sun, and buy used equipment, you should be able to get enough power to run a scaled down regular home setup with some but not all appliances, without unreasonable capital outlays. Run a generator on the days you don't have sun or wind, hopefully few if you chose wisely.
It may still be more expensive in the long run all things considered than hooking up to the grid, and generators are noisy, and the pain in the ass factor is huge I imagine, but price will continue to drop and for many the grid is not an option or something they want to do. I wouldn't bet on big government.
"... massive underground concrete footing . "
Anyone know just how big they are ?
Useful article! Crunching the numbers, under ideal conditions i.e. wind blowing constantly within the useable range 24hrs/d, 7d/wk, year round with no gusting and no calms, the city of Calgary would require 20,000 of the 18m wind turbines simply to meet the residential electricity needs, before even considering the commercial, let alone industrial electricity demand.
Although I was hugely skeptical of nuclear power in the past, more so after Chernobyl, since I started educating myself about it, I truly believe it represents the cleanest, most realistic electrical energy source for Alberta and much of Canada now and for the foreseeable future.
A couple of my associates are into the wind/solar generation thing but only a tinkers. For them it is something to putter around to se if it can be done or to put lights in the garage or boathouse. These are the type who took apart dad's TV when they were growing up to see how it works. Neither are under any illusion that they can power their house reliably at a reasonable cost.
Besides the Goracle and his west coast compadre, the only people making money on wind/solar power are the ones manufacturing all the parts and gizmos that are needed to play with this. And you thought toy trains was an expensive hobby... price out some deep cycle batteries sometime.
On the topic of nuclear:
Once the Cap and trade system is in place, the Nuclear plant will also be able to sell it's clean energy carbon credits to a coal plant, which ironically will often be owned by the same company.
Small windmills are for people who are bad at math. Blade length determines torque, torque determines how fast the generator spins.
Long blades means a tall tower, which in turn means a BIG frackin' concrete foundation. We're talking on the rough order of 1/4 to 1/2 the height of the tower, and at least double the tower circumference.
I am not an engineer, so it may be better or worse than that. Expensive, for sure.
To which simple facts we get the boiler-plate Lefty response from the trolls: Shut up!
Sorry trolls, torque = Force x Radius, bummer that doesn't work out for your propaganda campaign.
This is an extremely stupid website featuring extremely stupid commenters and extremely stupid posts. I'm debookmarking it, I've seen enough. Have nice happy extremely stupid lives, extremely stupid people.
Former Reader (Charles?): Only an extremely retarded person would write "extremely stupid" with such extreme redundancy. Don't let the virtual door hit you on your wait out.
Go cry to Gore... just because we poke holes in your simple delusions doesn't mean we are stupid as you claim.
Perhaps I'm the dumb one though for writing this to someone that has admitted he will not be coming back.
I'm buying shares in GE with T. Boone Pickins. May as well make money on these dumb sh*ts. At least I'll get a little of my tax money back.
Go Big O Go!
Oh no, another debookmarking!!!! Do they have debookmarking crisis managers in Saskatchewan? We can probably lend you 1 or 2 debookmarking experts from UBC or SFU.
Anyone know just how big they are ?
Posted by: ron in kelowna at April 20, 2009 1:45 PM
Diameter varies between 12m-20m and approx 500mm thick
Re: Former Reader at April 20, 2009 3:08 PM
The real mystery is who keeps asking these people to bookmark this site in the first place?
You're right Gord @12:14, "Should've" is fine, "should of" is not.
ratt, without a real revolution you will be.
"Sorry trolls, torque = Force x Radius, bummer that doesn't work out for your propaganda campaign."
Phantom
That is the old misogynistic math/physics. If you were a little more progressive you'd get it!
Stupid is as stupid does....
Ever notice how quickly, those who fall for something anyone smarter than a fifth-grader would reject, yell stupid.........
Ever notice when Taliban Jack referring to wind/solar energy always looks like he is having an orgasm...
ron in kelowna wrote:
"... massive underground concrete footing . "
Anyone know just how big they are ?
I would have to assume the taller the windmill the more massive the base.
I have it on good authority that the big ones here in Ontario are 1000 tons of concrete and steel.
The wind stress on a 400 ft tower would require no less.
looking at doing a solar collector for home domestic hot water at the 51st latitude.
at best the collector "might" supply 50% annual.
an "investment" of ~$2K in the components and my own sweat labour, it "might" payback in 10 years.
that's gotta make a sale!?