"Morale at the CIA has been shaken to its foundation."

Then stop breaking the law.
You let torture out of the box, a few steps down the road the nice men from the government will be torturing war vets and right-wingers, looking for the "next Timothy McVeigh".

Such tortured arguments.

Bourrie, waterboarding isn't torture.

This is torture.

Never thought I would end up feeling sorry for those publicity hounds.
Obama is slowly but surly with lots of bells & whistles to distract Americans. Taking away their Freedoms, & making the USA into a one Party State. He is quietly suborning every organization that is Government or not. Of course the pretext is the economic problems they themselves helped engineer.
The one thing I do know is that Obama is only the face behind the cabal.
What where watching is the breaking up of the American hegemony by her enemies.
The American Century is over. The weak chose bread & circuses over liberty, as is shown with his 67% approval rating .
Our Southern cousins have abandoned allies, introduced protectionism, & bankrupted the Republic.
Now its head the TOTUS has set his departments to eat one another while he watches them twist.
All the while embracing its enemies while pretending its 1999.
JMO
JMO

Those CIA bastards did everything they could to undermine George W.

Because so many of them are fools they didn't realise that revolutions consume their own.

Fascism is system under which top-level corporate interests are partnered with the government (and protected from competition or failing because of it), where traditional values and methods must be cast aside so that the change to the New Man can occur, and where a charismatic leader is elevated to near godhood (note small "g") by adoring fans within the media.

Obama's past lead many to believe that he's a socialist, but it appears that he's more of a National Socialist than the communistic sort that was feared.

BTW, "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg is a very interesting and enlightening take on the political history of the last century.

Call Obama whatever you like. The rules say America doesn't torture people. The American people don't want their government to torture people. That's what makes America better than a run-of-the-mill police state.

Oh, and before the inevitable complaints about "you can't call him Hitler!", I didn't. Fascism is a political system that was practiced by President Wilson and Mussilini long before Hitler came along and poluted the "brand". There is nothing inherently racist in fascism, just a profound nationalism that, in the case of Germany, lead to a xenophobic response to all others. Part of being an American is the melting-pot nature of the country, whereby many differences are melded to become one society. Modern liberalism just wants what the newly integrated are supposed to become to be slightly changed to fit in better with their view of the world.

1. waterboarding is torment, not torture.

2. hugh hewitt has made note of the reason why this witchhunt is happening - citing none other than the NYT as a source - http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/6584280b-4646-46b6-aa10-dc639321610e

It is important that from this point forward any terrorist acts be considered to have happened solely on BO and the Dems watch (pelosi's claim that she wasn't aware of the CIA's interrogation techniques is nauseating. how she got to be leader in the house is a damning indictment of the dem party's system of leadership promotion.

Mark, the American people don't want their cities vaporized, or poisoned, or diseased either. As none of the Geneva convention protections apply to those who shoot from behind women and children or from on holy ground and who fight for no nation and without uniforms, the proper international terms for these individuals are terrorists or spies. Either can be shot out of hand if they are caught red-handed. The US has, instead, kept them alive and allowed many to return to the battle. The US doesn't need to worry about decending as low as the opponents in this fight. I have yet to see a beheading video filmed by US forces, who then run around screaming with joy holding the severed head. Washing their hair instead (and doubt drowning some of their lice) pales in comparison. True torture one doesn't recover from (check all the recent speeches by John McCain and see how high he can lift his arms). Only in a decadent, possibly failing, society are the two compared like that.

Time to go play with my son. I'm glad there are strong men working in dark places to help keep him safe.

Mark Bourrie is an uninformed cretin.

Americans don't' torture AMERICANS as a rule.

Americans DO torture foreign ENEMIES at war with them. Do you think the French won world war II with their charm?

Now go jerk yourself.

Nancy Pelosi had her chance to stop enhanced interrogation.

She didn't, therefore she is every bit as guilty of any crimes the supporters of her political party claim the other political party is guilty of.

In her position as represenative of the minority party, it was her duty to let the American people know what she thought of the methods.

Impeach Pelosi, the person who had a chance to save the American people but looked the other way.

As the taxpayers' revolt gains momentum, the Congress of 2010 will have the right to charge Obama with crimes against We The People by saddling them with a $6 trillion deficit.

The American people will have the final verdict on this backward-looking administration, no matter how much lip service Obama gives to ‘looking forward, not backwards.;

He has set a historic precedent he and his supporters will come to regret.

So, Mark, are the people who waterboarded Christopher Hitchens and the Leftist, antiwar (U.S. war, that is, they've never given a damn about anyone else fighting a war) protesters who waterboarded other Leftist, antiwar protesters at rallies all to be charged with crimes against humanity too? According to you they must. And how about including any child who has ever thrown a bug onto another child? (BTW, all Western governments' armies do this to their own troops to prepare them for interrogation at the hands of their enemies.)

It's all a distraction; they want to shift the focus away from the economy. Multi-trillion dollar deficits, and we're supposed to be worried that a few bad guys got roughed-up.

I wonder if the "torture", done to TERRORISTS, was any worse that what Chavez or Castro do to their political opponents.

The real story is that Obama doesn't have the backbone, or the will, to stand up to the most extreme members of his party.

What truly baffles me is the simple fact the more journalists have been waterboarded pursuing a story than 'enemy combatants'. Funny how none of these folks has suffered any long term, or short term, for that matter, effects. As someone said earlier, it's torment not torture.

Doug - were you being funny when you stated that the Fwench (!!!) won (whone)(the one?) WWII? It is funny to state that; but the context suggested no laugh; just wondering.

I don't think 250 journalists have been waterboarded.
Anyone who has waterboarded anyone against their will in the US should be charged.
Anyone who has been waterboarded because they want to be is probably a fool, but it's a free country.

Torture – noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

No where do I see sleep deprivation, making someone "uncomfortable", subjecting one to mental duress, etc. Torture is accepted to be definition #1 usually... of course if you are a Liberal (or some other soft "progressive" ((HA)) type) then torture is something that happens that is "bad".

Now waterboarding, from what I have seen, is not nice by any means. But inflicting excruciating pain? I think not.

How much trust will any organization have when politicians start pulling this crap for their own gain or their opponents detriment. I know I would demand full, written orders, signed that I could put away to protect myself.

The Americans did not torture people during the war. In fact, people were hanged for these kinds of war crimes after WWII and earlier wars. I'd direct you to the case of Geerals Homma and Yamashita. I would also direct you to the accounts of the trials of the Conferderates who ran the Andersonville prison.

The Americans did not torture people during the war. In fact, people were hanged for these kinds of war crimes after WWII and earlier wars. I'd direct you to the case of Geerals Homma and Yamashita. I would also direct you to the accounts of the trials of the Confederates who ran the Andersonville prison.

Prediction: Before 2012 (unless the Dems get cremated in the '10 election) the CIA will be dissolved and replaced by an Obama creation, empowered by brand new legislation to spy outside the USA -and- inside it.

The CIA pre-Bush II era were a load of overpaid cretins, and 9/11 is the proof.

The CIA's Obama replacement will not be an improvement. Quite the opposite.

This is my Phantomly prediction du jour.

Interesting how bourrie ignores the point of the column. Torture or not, Goss was talkng about how leading democrats are now pretending they knew nothing (nothing!) about waterboarding, yet it was obvious they were fully aware of it. Those are your heroes, bourrie, defend them. They sanctioned it.

At the Power Line blog—an excellent site, BTW—there’s an excellent video @ “Cheney in 2012!” with Liz Cheney, Dick’s daughter, more than holding her own, on this thread’s issue, against the MSNBC Obama bimbo puppet: some aggressive partisan called Norah.

For what it's worth, I’ve sent this message to MSNBC:

I’m a Canadian who is watching, with dread, the train wreck, which is the Obama administration. B+? I don’t think so. But what would one expect from a propaganda outfit like MSNBC? I watched, with no surprise, and with an increasing lack of respect, your interviewer act as a shill for the Democrats’ and the Obama administration’s shameful partisanship. To abuse the safety and security of the USA—and its allies—to score political points is reprehensible. So is MSNBC’s collusion in that betrayal.

Please let Norah know that our Islamic enemies, who fight as members of the Taliban and Al Qaeda, contravene all the Geneva Convention rules of warfare: they do not wear conventional uniforms, they do not fight as a part of the recognized military force of a state (they’re guerrilla fighters), they have neither serial numbers nor rank, they use civilians—women and children—as cover, and they deliberately target civilians for torture and death. What part of this does Norah not understand?

Liz Cheney did a fine job of eviscerating the pomp and propaganda of Norah and MSNBC. Brava, Liz!

And I’d imagine that MSNBC is wondering why the MSM is dying. I can tell you. The MSM’s left-wing propaganda, which is served up day after day, is a complete betrayal of their mandate. Whatever happened to intelligent and fair REPORTING? The MSM used to be able to fool most of the people most of the time. Not any more.

Now that’s GOOD NEWS!

They're not my heroes. I believe they are lying.

A foreign view on Obama and the CIA.
http://tinyurl.com/dgjnmm

Mark your examples suck. Your examples are of people who were charged with keeping prisoners. As many have pointed out the terrorists are not part of a recognized army. As such they can be treated as spies and obliterated without thought or impunity. That we, the civilized West, actually treat them with respect when they are kept imprisoned, well it is better than many beheaded prisoners of the medieval enemy we oppose.

As for the special treatment that some of the high value prisoners, I have no problem with the methods used to try and get information to safe life and property.

"save" vice "safe" of course

Of course they are -lying- Mark. The real problem is the purpose they are lying in support of. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that Obama is selling CIA field operatives out for a nine-day-wonder in the papers, and a little red meat for his followers.

By the first week of May this will have run out of pizazz, and he'll need a brand new "scandal" to keep surfing the wave.

Meanwhile, he just burnt his whole international spy org during a shootin' war. They are all going to quit and go into hiding if they have any brains at all.

How is this in the interests of those Americans you're so concerned about?

As a recent, male poster here sounds like a thorough pantywaist, I consider him to be, along with Norah, an “Obama bimbo puppet”. What part of hoodwinked do these people not understand?

Rhetorical question: what they don’t understand is the facts of the matter and the right to use reasonable force to defend oneself from murderous enemies, who would show no mercy whatsoever if the shoe were on the other foot. The softening of the Western brain is as much our enemy as Islamic jihadists: without it, they’d have been thoroughly routed by now. Instead, they use “lawfare”—an inversion of our rights and freedoms—to worm away inside the gates of Western democracies.

What’s going on in the US right now is a perfect example of lawfare and Obama, the person with the sacred obligation to protect the citizens of the USA, is selling them down the river for a few cheap, political points. Shame on him.

It's one thing for America to say we do not want to be seen on the World stage as a country that mistreats POWs, and to change their MO accordingly. It's entirely another to undermine national security by releasing classified documents.

I don't believe that any of the methods the CIA used can be called torture (nor would I have a problem with them torturing those murderous terrorist f@!-s) but I do think that regardless of how one feels about it the field agents were doing their job in a fashion that had consent from their superiors. The Obama administration should never have entertained the idea of pursuing them criminally.

The success of these enhanced interrogation methods demonstrates the need for them. I wonder, how many more terrorist attacks on US soil will it take for the lefties to realize that this fight against terrorism is necessary?

Oh, you're so brave. What unit are you in?

Think maybe the rulebook was thrown out by the team of hijackers at 9-11? Both sides gotta play by the same rules.

It's only fair :)

Let me add my opinion, as re-opined through an post-SDA commenter..."I'll state my position as plainly as I can - the CIA could waterboard "Mahmoud" once a week,
and western democracies would be nowhere in danger of becoming "no better than the enemy"
or "losing our soul" or other such nonsense...But then again, relativism was never my strong suit. Try as I might, I cannot place "water up the
nose" on the same ethical plane as say, the application of a cordless drill to a prisoner's temple
or forcing him to watch while his children are raped and then slaughtered."
Thank you, Orlin Bowman

Those are ludicrous choices. We're supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be the good guys.

Pretty all countries in the world of any consequence have organizations that operate in the shadows and outside the normal confines of legal systems. That is the reality. Those who suggest that the US should operate otherwise and within civilian rules and laws are really just actors who are trying to disarm the US. They are either acting as a deliberate fifth column or they are as naive as little children. They should be put into a military unit that is in action. Probably would have to put Depends on them, but it would wake them up from their little sleep although we could let them sleep in the "jammies" with their little bunny feet if it would make them feel better. The first duty of the state is to protect its citizens.

Mr. Bourrie sir, we're supposed to WIN against these a-holes. To do that we need to know who and where they are so we can go kill them.

I am not an expert on that stuff. If the guys who are experts feel the need for some wearing down of informants by dastardly means, I balance that against 3000 dead on 9/11 and Momar Quadafi's pet nuke that nobody knew he had. How many of those are waiting to be smuggled into a nice container ship?

I guess some people deserve liberty and some don't. If you don't defend liberty and the rule of law, soon you won't have to worry about them. When people are willing to accept the torture of people by the government, the government will be glad to oblige, for so many, many "good" reasons.

Mark, a wise Man once stated, "There is no one good except God".

We set our standards of 'goodness' just as our enemies set their standards of 'goodness'. Therein lies the problem. The two standards of 'goodness' are in conflict and unless we protect ourselves, our standard of 'goodness' shall be their standard of 'goodness'.

Self righteousness will not keep evil at bay.

We're supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be the good guys.

Mark; WWs I and II weren't won with sunshine and lollipops. They were won because our guys ripped the enemy's guts out and used the remains to grease the tracks of our tanks. Now, I don't know what sort of candy-a$$, Mr Rogers fellating, bubble you live in but here, in the real world, hard men have to do hard things to guard our safety and way of life.

Hey ... god sends people to hell to burn for all eternity. That's not torture?

He also lets people into heaven where they can sit around and worship him for all eternity. That's not torture?

The 72 virgin thingy is starting to sound better.

Mark Bourrie, you have converted me. You are right!

Because of COURSE there is no difference between a citizen of Canada and an Al Qaeda terrorist caught on the battlefield, in Afghanistan, by Canadian soldiers, with a gun in his hand. No difference at all.

Its all so clear to me now...

"Self righteousness will not keep evil at bay"
Indeed, Joe. Well said.

Mark, try this hypothesis. Islamic fundamentalists are getting ready to rape, torture, your daughter, your little sister, your mother, and several other members of your family.

You have a prisoner in your custody, and he knows where they are and when they're going to get started.

So now the question is what are you going to do, Mark? The clock is ticking.

If you're not willing to do what's necessary, then I don't want you in a position of responsibility.

If you're willing to stand idly by while your family is slaughtered like sheep, I pity you.

On the CIA issue, I feel like the rest of you.

However, there is an upside. Obama has now made an enemy of the CIA. I expect leaks to be forthcoming putting the Obama administration in a bad light. And of course they have given us an issue.

Bourrie it's torture reading your posts. Naive comes to mind.

BS question, based on a serious of ridiculous premisses, including the idea that if I torture the person I'll get the truth, rather than a piece of long-rehearsed and well-coached disinformation that will waste my time and divert me from getting good intelligence that might actually prevent the scenario from playing out.

As an old VietNam vet, I can tell you that Mark has now rendered himself irrelevant.

Although I don't know of any Americans whose family was directly threatened, in the field this situation does come up. And the safety of another military unit or your fellow combatants is threatened if the prisoner is not made to reveal vital information.

At this juncture we might like Mark and sympathize with his sentiments, but he has completely eliminated himself as a player who is committed to reaching a solution.

Mark has now become one of those people that we have to protect because they are incapable of protecting themselves.

Mark, you are right, torture rarely gets the truth, it gets the answer you want. Using other methods, on the other hand, sleep deprivation, making the prisoner uncomfortable, questions at any and all hours of the day or night, and yes, even repeated waterboarding (not an extremely painful procedure, scary, no doubt but not fatal) may break down the prisoner and allow for slips in questioning. I am pretty sure that the same questions will be asked in many different ways, each answer recorded and analyzed.

If waterboarding is the worst that the west did, then I can live with that. The renditions, well, that is another question. The countries that received these people are not nice countries, by our standards. How they treat their own people, we can protest it, but should we really try and impose our own standards?

Lastly, do you think the detainees in Gitmo were being tortured? If you do, then I refer you way back up to the definition and suggest that your standards are not the dictionary definition standards.

Scenario based questions are always so hard to frame correctly. Let us say that Al'Q stole a nuke from Pakistan. And lets say that they also procured the ability to detonate it at a time of their choosing. You have in custody a terrorist who you believe has information that could help recover this weapon. What do you do? He told you he knows of the weapon, he taunted you with the fact it was on its way and there is nothing you can do to stop it... but is that true?

Let's not say anymore sily scenarios. Let's deal with reality.

Let's not say anymore silly scenarios. Let's deal with reality.

markhas went from proving hisself naive, to proving hisself stupid. Mark, the whole guist of the thread is about denial by memebers of the house who were informed of the "events" before they took place, capice!!!!!!