"When did we become a Vincent Li country?"

Does anyone really doubt that he was out of his mind? If he can be medicated to prevent this behaviour, whoever was responsible for THAT should be prosecuted. If it was himself, then he should be held responsible for not receiving approriate care. Assuming it was actually accessible, of course. Was it?

Kind of reminds me of the judges who put fathers in jails because of wacko "feminist" psycho-analysts and their unproven theories of repressed memory syndrome. The theory being adult women were feeling depressed as a result of abuse by their fathers but this memory was so horrible it was repressed and forgotten. Judges bought this nonsense when even the major medical establishments never did.

Isn't anyone who kills anyone for any reason a little bit nuts? You have to be nuts to kill someone.

Li admitted guilt to the police after the incident and asked the court to kill him. Who has better judgement: the mentally ill Li or the sane prosecuting lawyer and judge?

The advocates for people with mental health problems should be most vocal.
Does this do anything to encourage trust and acceptance if a mental disorder can be an excuse for anti-social behaviour?

Like I said on an earlier thread, this trial was all about Vince Li, pseudo-victim, not about Tim McLean, real victim.

As I read Charles Adler's very articulate and succinct take on this travesty of a trial, I also realized that this trial was about the omnipotence of the therapeutic chattering classes, the new dispensation in Canada: Always feel sorry for, and let off the hook of personal responsibility and accountability, the socio/psychopath who has killed someone, is dealing drugs, treats others with utter contempt and disdain because, dontcha know?, they're depraved on accounta they're deprived. Psychiatrists are now the new priesthood who grant indulgences to the maladjusted in our midst.

Vince Li is totally responsible for his brutal killing of Tim McLean and the subsequent desecration of Tim McLean's body. Before he committed this crime, Li had been in an institution, was released, and at some point made the decision to go off his medication. That makes him responsible and he should be made accountable.

Instead, we have the two psychiatric goons averring that Li is a "decent" and "gentle" human being. Excuse me? Looking at what Mr. Li did and attaching "decent" and "gentle" to his person is a complete oxymoron and makes morons of these "doctors" who are living in some kind of alternative universe to the one that most Canadians live in -- what Mr. Adler refers to as the "Canadian Mountain."

We have no guarantee that if Li is released from hospital after a spell of rehabilitation, he won't go off his meds again and kill again. He needs to be kept off our streets, buses, and subways for life. He needs to be held accountable for this crime. He may be insane, poor man, but he is CRIMINALLY insane and needs to be found guilty.

What happens when he forgets to take his meds?

Once there was a time when such folk would be incarcerated for the rest of their life.

But these are more "enlightened times." (sarc)

Another issue is what was the responsibility of the officers of the law who arrived on the scene and allowed Vince Li to stay on that bus with a dead body and desecrate it in full view of all of the passengers? I'm a great defender of the right of our police to protect, using force if necessary. So, why did they not use reasonable force to stop Vince Li from desecrating Tim McLean's body over and over again?

Most of the "authorities" in this scenario, from the police, to the court personnel, to the psychiatrists called as witnesses, have totally failed in their responsibilities to the Canadian citizenry: All of them have bent over backwards to accommodate Vince Li and his unfortunate psychiatric illness and have put the "niceness" of Canadians on trial. Woe to anyone who doesn't feel sorry for "poor" Mr. Li and agree to give him a pass.

I can't help but bring up another issue, the utterance of which will cause the courts, the psychiatrists, and our chattering classes to suck in their collective breath and raise a very arched eyebrow: What part has Mr. Li's "diverse, multicultural" status, as a recent immigrant from China, played in his sentencing and in the court's shying away from finding him in any way responsible for this crime? At the very least, he should have been found criminally insane.

A crime was committed. A horrendous, brutal, and inhuman crime. Someone's responsible. And if it isn't Mr. Li, who is it?

wanna off somebody here in canuckistan?

experiment with a shot glass and find out how tanked you can get and still function. practice practice practice.

now sit and wait, stalk the prey and keep quaffing those martinis to keep the blood alcohol spot on. when the prey makes their appearance, run them over and that way you can get off with a very minimum sentence plus for sure a (oh dear) LICENCE SUSPENSION!!! gasp !!!

based on a true story.

I'm finding it somewhat disconcerting that this morning I'm actually finding myself agreeing with the likes of Tom Cruise, albeit for different reasons.

I want to buy a liver. Any takers as to whose, if you get my drift.

We don't have a justice system...it's a legal system, that sucks.

Also...thanks to Adler for filling us in on the details.
No sense even mentioning the laziness of our MSM.
Did anyone read or hear the fact that police and witnesses did not get on the stand at the so-called trial??We find that out from Adler only.

batb...I wonder about the timing re: police interfering. How long did it take for the police to arrive. Sadly it looks like it did not take long for the despicable acts.

Dahmer et al weren't schizo. Li clearly was he shouldn't be incarcerated with the regular prison population but he should also not be relaesed unless we have a very high degree of certainty that he will not degrade into such a state again or anything remotely close to such a state.

The "off his meds" argument is an interesting one - IOW if he consciously stopped taking his meds and then reverted to a full-blown schizo state, is he guilty? (i don't think Li was being treated whatsoever so this argument does not apply to this specific case)

My discussions with people who deal with schizo's a lot is that a very, very high percentage of them stop taking their meds - that the medication only partially stabilizes them and thus going off them still does not make them guilty.

Why have we never heard what Li, was doing with a knife? That reeks of premeditation for so many reasons.
Good for Adler, for saying what so many of us are thinking. Actions however, speak louder than words.

Since the perp fits my own exact definition of real insanity, I can't dispute the result. It would have been useful if the trial had gone into the horrible side effects of anti-psychotic drugs and the need to have those who can't or won't keep taking them under strict control.

Well, a few observations from the prison capital of Canada.

That creature should be locked up in KP(Kingston Pen) for life. There is no way that any "professional" can guarantee that he won't re-offend. This way, they can protect him like they protect Olsen and Bernardo, and they can assure he gets the medical help he needs.(there is a Regional Treatment Centre at KP that is geared for mental health issues).

Sayng that, he will likely end up in a half way house, and be allowed to roam some innocent community, while the doctors who are treating him keep their fingers crossed hoping that the deviant keeps on his meds.

Nobody took the stand not in an effort to hide anything, bluetech, but because it wouldn't matter.

The guy is obviously insane. No if's, and's or but's about it. What would it help to have people take the stand and say, yes, he was crazy, he was eating flesh. How would that help the family?

He'll be away in a mental hospital for a long time. Nobody wants him out.

gord I would argue that the so-called experts hadn't got their acts together in time for Dahlmer et al.

So, why did they not use reasonable force to stop Vince Li from desecrating Tim McLean's body over and over again?

They phoned their boss first off and he/she/it told them to do the multi-culti-tolerance-and-diversity-thingy (nuthin), but shoot anyone else who tries to interfere.

Can you imagine how the family of Tim McLean must be feeling? In my mind just another line between our law and their law.

This quote, from whoever it was, best sums up my feeling of this event and one hell of a lot of others concerning our legal system.

If you want satisfaction go to a whore house, if you want to get F--ked go to a court house.

Just a reminder for the crimonologists, psychiatrists and other bleeding hearts when they tell us all in a few years' time that Li is fit for release...

"The man charged in last night's unprovoked stabbing at a Riverdale streetcar stop had been charged with an identical 2003 attack in the Dufferin Mall, but was found not criminally responsible."

“He was put into the mental health system, released and then went out and did exactly the same thing,” Toronto police Detective Derek Young said this morning. ‘‘This was another completely unprovoked attack.”

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/05/21/riverdale-stabbing-suspect-hospitalized-after-identical-2003-attack.aspx

If I may ... now that I read Adler and got pissed right off.

FYI

Crazy people who hear voices are the very people who gave us gods and religions in the first place. That was long before psychiatrists and psychologists were invented.

Many people who hear from a god, hear from a god who apparently has on-going financial problems, that would be the Christian god. Others are told to take over the world, that would be the Allah version who just doesn't want to share his toys.

The wastoid Li, from some Asian dung heap, happened to hear from HIS particular god who wanted to see some 'blood on a bus' since it is now a bit too hard to get his 'snakes on a plane.' Yes, Li's god is the same one who tells Arabs to take over the world. I mean to say ... it IS exactly in the style the Allah god isn't it?

In view of the Allah god's people with their penchant for beheading others, why is this guy considered po' schizophrenic and all the other Islamo whacks are simply considered devout, horny, virgin-crazed young men who just want the Western world to quit bugging them?

In a real country, Li would be considered at least criminally insane and locked up forever.

In an earlier and better time, a good citizen would have pulled out a colt .45 and shot that bastard at the first sign of the knife and the blood right there and then on the bus. Same could be said for the Marc Lepine event in Montreal some years ago.

In the cowardly pretend country of Canada, Li will petted and cared for by compassionate Liberals and eventually set up in a nice little condo where he can live and get a job maybe washing dishes at the local chino dispensary, or what the hell, why work at all, welfare for life will do just fine. After all this is a bus person we are talking about.

Okay, it's morning and I need another drink.

The judge should have found that Li presents a danger to society and that he should be placed in a mental institution for the rest of his life.

He has clearly shown to be a danger to society because he did not take his medication , and in future would probably also fail to take his medication ... hence he is a danger to society ... PERIOD !

"He'll be away in a mental hospital for a long time. Nobody wants him out."

But someone DOES want him out. The psychiatrists who treat him, would like to prove their genius by "curing" him, and if it takes a year, or two, they'll wait until they think he's "no longer a danger to society", and release him. "He's really a nice guy".

And if he re-offends, the psychiatrist will declare on the witness stand, at Mr.Li's second trial,"of course one can't be CERTAIN", but they will have released him nonetheless, and will have no culpability whatsoever if he does re-offend.

Kenneth Bianchi, the infamous Los Angeles Hillside Strangler, after spending a couple of years in Walla Walla, convinced a naive corrections psychologist that he had been mentally ill, and was now better, and should be considered for parole.

He was stopped from applying for early parole only by the actions of State doctors who'd examined him before trial, and knew how dangerous he really was.

Psychiatry is as exact a science as climatology, but without the lovely graphs and charts to prove it. Mr.Li is one naive psychiatrist away from release, especially after a couple of years, when the notoriety has subsided.

If you talk to ten schizos on meds, each one will have a different prescription. They also have just as many names for the diagnosis rather than the stigmatizing schizophrenia. Last ten years the catch-phrase/diagnosis has been called Bi-Polar disorder. These doctors don't care about you or me, only furthering their science. Personally, I think psycology is about as much a science as say alchemy, or sorcery.

John, to blame what Li did on religion is going a little bit overboard and a just a little bit unhinged in its own right. You might want to deal with whatever inner conflicts lead you to such extreme positions. Remember - mental discipline. And a good psychiatrist can help! And ya, the days when a good citizen might have just drawn their .45 were better in a whole lot of ways.

Peace.

This treatment of Li as not responsible due to mental illness is hardly new in Canada. This is how we treat women who murder or abuse their children. We say that they are 'clinically depressed'.

Recall the case a few years ago in Toronto, where a young woman starved her baby to death. Social services had been, apparently, watching over her and totally missed the rather obvious fact of starvation. The mother? Oh, she was let off because she claimed 'post-partum depression' and she also claimed that she shouldn't have been allowed to take the baby home.

Other cases - same thing. The mother may abuse her child to the state of death - and is defined as not responsible due to depression.

Nothing new in Canada.

This is so sick! You cannot force anyone to stay on their meds. This guy should never be allowed to walk the streets a free man. If he is mentally ill, they should lock him up in an asylum for life to keep the population safe. If he went off of his meds once he will go off his meds again. If he killed and partially ate someone - he will do it again. Let him live next door to those shrinks.

Li has only been in Canada for a few years. Didn't any of the geniuses at Immigration Canada ask about his mental or physical health before allowing him to live in this country? Or does the diversity criteria encouraged by the anarchist bureaucrats who administer our immigration policies encourage every misfit on the planet to become a Canadian? Send this nut back to china.

*
"When did we become a Vincent Li country?"

lemme see... how about when we started using taxpayer dollars to give beauty treatments
to violent criminally-insane rapists being held in a psych-facilities... who now want to
be women?

"Wearing a skirt and high-heeled shoes, Taylor -- formerly named Vance Egglestone until
she got a legal name change -- began transitioning into a female in 2000, with extensive
hormone therapy, nose surgery and $15,000 worth of permanent hair removal."

yup, i'm thinkin'... right about then.

*

You're right, ET. Canada has a small, select group of pass-Go, collect $200 citizens, depending on what victim group they're a part of: poor, downtrodden, and abused women who abuse and/or kill, can't-help-it mentally ill folk who go off their meds and commit a crime, and anyone who's part of a visible/diverse/"multicultural" minority, excluding, of course, white, Judeo-Christian, Anglo-Saxons whose families have been in Canada for generations and are responsible for building our democratic public institutions -- because we all know, tch, tch, that they belong to an "historically privileged" group who don't deserve to pass Go or collect anything. They've had their day in the sun.

Justice should be totally blind but we all know that in Canada this isn't the case. There are different kinds of "justice" and you just hope that if you're hauled before a judge you can prove your victim bona fides, otherwise you're fried.

'Looks like Vince Li won the Victimhood Sweepstakes: He's a Chinese immigrant, he's schizophrenic, and he's definitely a member of a visible minority.

Vince Li's going to be able to pass Go and collect $200 over and over again -- for life.

What justice (sic) will there be for Tim McLean's family?

He said his God told him to do it - accomplice. So hang his God. Or is he mental also ?

Li is clearly nuts. Fair enough. Straightjacket on, and off to a padded cell.

But Tim McLean was the victim here.

Also, I'd be interested to know how many able-bodied men were on that bus and why they never rushed Li.*

Anyone have an idea?

* Mention of Marc Lépine (AKA Gamil Gharbi) brings up the awkward question of why the men at the École Polytechnique didn't just rush that murderous nutbar either.

It would have taken one tough Dude to confront Li. And would have likely ended up in a fight to the finish. Even if the Dude won, would he have then been charged with murder ? Ya think !

jjm...when the story came out there were reports of men who were originally not passive, and actually cleared the bus to protect others. They have suffered. There was nothing they could have done. Let's not go there.
And john, your story about your bad experience with religion is sorely misplaced here.

neo...if I recall you had info about Li's 'record' before the bus trip, another item ignored by the lazy media and so-called justice system.
Seems the experts are protecting the experts.
any links neo?

OK, JJM. This is my take on why Gamil Rodrigue Gharbi, aka Marc Lepine, and Vince Li were not rushed. If the "able-bodied" males on both scenes had sprung into action, many deaths could have been averted.

Our secular humanist educational (sic) system has been grooming cowards -- moral pygmies -- since the '60s. In order to put yourself in harm's way you have to believe that there is a reality that is bigger and nobler than you. This is the vision of the Judeo-Christian faith upon which our Canadian democracy was founded and which, until the Godless '60s and onward, undergirded our educational system.

"Without a vision the people perish." Now that the Judeo-Christian faith has been trashed in our "educational" institutions, in the media, and in the public square, most of our young men are armed only with the humanist "truth" that there is no higher power governing our lives, that we are not our brothers'/sisters' keeper, that we are "it," what's the point in "standing up like a man?"

Why would anyone put oneself in harm's way to help someone else? What would be the use of sacrifice, of laying down one's life for another? When it's all about "me," then my life is paramount and I have to run from any threat to my sacrosanct, precious, me-centred life.

What we've been breeding in our schools and institutes of "higher learning" are lily-livered, self-centred, nobody-matters-but-ME, cowards. I see them every day in classrooms and on our streets, buses, and subways.

Be scared. Be very scared. We're going to see an increase in this kind of moral depravity.

Having made a general diagnosis of why everyone ran and/or hid in both the Polytechnique and Greyhound bus scenarios, it's fairly clear that it would have been extremely difficult for a group of men to rush Li in a cramped bus aisle. On the other hand, there wouldn't have been any place for Li to run in the bus, and wouldn't it have been possible, then, for four or five men to have overpowered him?

I'm sure all of the people on that bus are thoroughly traumatized by what happened, but one does wonder what could have been if Li had been rushed by several men.

Then, one wonders why the police, with all sorts of resources at their disposal, didn't do something to disarm him? There seem to be a lot of unanswered questions here, but the trial is over.

Why?

I wish I could think of something more to say, but I'm pretty well burned out on this story.

As ET say's, post-partum has been a stay out of jail card for many years in this society. The difference is, post-partum is a well recognized condition. My ex-wife had it, but the only person she came close to killing was me. Many of these women commit these acts well outside the time frame associated with post-partum, but doctors are still willing to swear they were not responsible.

When I was about 6, our cat ate her newborn kittens. My dad shot her immediately. I didn't figure it out for about 10 years. I have no doubt that he would not have hesitated to do the same to a woman who ate her young.

Vince Li should do the right thing. Swallow his tongue.

"Mention of Marc Lépine (AKA Gamil Gharbi) brings up the awkward question of why the men at the École Polytechnique didn't just rush that murderous nutbar either."

It would have been a LOT easier if they'd been "packing".

"Not criminally responsible"?

Fine, then we euthanize it! In fact it would be a kindness to do so.

Now that the trial is over I presume the passengers on the bus can now have their luggage which they couldn't get initially because it was being held for evidence - our justice system is broke.
Nobody uses common sense anymore.

Li had been advised to seek help from a psychiatric nurse friend according to what I read at the time. The police never entered the bus because the victim was definitely dead. There was no one to protect therefore no need to kill him. They don't know if he is high, nuts or what but he isn't going anywhere. He will probably end up in the Psych. Center in Saskatoon.

The prosecutors are hiding something. Something happened in the course of this event, and its investigation, that they want to bury. They knew a trial would expose the details, and they sacrificed justice for their reputation.

Maybe the RCMP needed some cover. They've been taking a lot of heat recently. No trial, no evidence, no witnesses. The story was supposed to go away, but this tactic will backfire. I predict, before the end of next week, someone will dig up the real dirt on this case.

This whole story makes me sad to be Canadian. We're such pussies. Since we won't kill him (give him what he wants), we'll just put him away for life and charge taxpayers. Oh wait, that won't even happen. No, we'll put him up at an 'institution' and try to 'rehabilitate' him. He will eventually find god (again - but this time he won't talk to him and tell him to kill people), and will be sorry for what he did, and then he will be released back into society. He could be sitting next to you on a Greyhound bus nine years from now. Another thing - to all the tough guys who say they would've helped poor Tim if they'd been on that bus: you don't know what the f*ck you would've done until you're in that situation. I'm not a coward, but if I saw that, I think I'd run for my life. Call it self-preservation.

Are our judges promoting no other alternative than vigilantism?

I can't speak for others but knowing myself I would have taken a tire iron or whatever I could swing for leverage and went at Li and I wouldn't have stopped until his head was a bloody pulp. I wonder how the police officers can look at themselves in the mirror for standing by and doing nothing.

So let's see if I have this correct. In 2002 this lunatic is allowed to immigrate to Canada because supposedly he had something to offer the country. He doesn't work and in 2004 is placed in a mental hospital and in 2005 because he is such a value to the country he is given citizenship. I want to know why the lunatic wasn't deported when his mental condition became know.

dastardly- We're allowing hundreds of known HIV positive immigrants into Canada. What's the big deal about a few psycho-killers?

I would like to see a national referendum on bringing capital punishment back, it should never have been taken away as an option.

Maybe I'm too practical but wouldn't a better way be, to hold a trial to determine if individual A did said crime or not. Having once determined whether individual A did said crime then consequences are applied. Whether the person is mentally able to determine right from wrong or not should not be considered until it is time to determine incarceration. If you are guilty of say murder, and sane you go to regular jail for the rest of your life. If you are guilty of murder and insane you go to a specially designed psychiatric ward for the rest of your life. It wouldn't be for punishment but rather for the protection of other innocent individuals.

I have no trouble believing that Li was insane but I also know that because of his insanity he is a high risk to re-offend. If Li were kept in a specially designed psych ward he would have no opportunity to re-offend and the rest of society would be just that much safer.

Having dealt with whack job tenants when I worked in property management, I have no tolerance for nut cases; you simply cannot begin to predict/guess what they will do! It may seem cruel and heartless, but a nut case like Li is better off dead for us and for him. Locking him up for life is a waste of his life, our money and runs the risk of some official pronouncing him "cured" and "no longer a danger" at a some future date.