"How Much for that Degree in the Window?"

well now,Captain.We can't be hurting the little darlings feelings,can we? I mean,what,if anything,would they learn from a job well done,and perservering to achieve thier goals? That most definitely does NOT fit into the socialist"blame everybody else" meme.

The author writes a familiar tale but it's probably worse in some areas and some schools than in others.

I recall teaching at one of the large Toronto universities (the one that is always on strike). I had two Chinese students in my class. Their book review was written in barely intelligible English. Two weeks later, they submitted their essays in absolutely perfect, fluent English. I called them in and asked them the meaning of various words. They replied: 'in the book', which meant the dictionary. They had purchased the papers, and that's a big business at this University.

I said I'd give them zero for the paper; they'd have to rewrite it and I'd give them half marks for it. They went to the Chair of my department, who actually told me to PASS THEM..that if they got 'enough D's' in their other classes then they'd be 'on probation'.
I refused. I went to the Dean, who sided with me. But from then on, the Chair had only one agenda: to get rid of me.

At another university, students would copy essays from other courses and submit them to you. Or from previous years. I dealt with that by the laborious act of photocopying the first three pages of each essay, keeping it, and going over it the next year. One year, in one class, there were over 11 such plagiarisms. In this university, however, the Chairs and Deans were fully supportive; the penalty was failure of the course.

Other students would make up the book references. The books didn't exist, or, the pages and words didn't exist.

I recall one student who rarely came to class. He had just returned from a week-long seminar on 'Ethics in the Business World'. He was failing my course. He came to me and said that, if I would only GIVE him the extra marks to pass the course, despite his having failed both tests and the essay...then, he said, no-one would know. He wouldn't tell anyone.
I reminded him that he had just returned from a course on ethics. And refused.

Students know which courses are the 'bird courses', i.e., the dumb ones, and only those who want that type of course take it. Therefore, I ended up with some great students who took my courses because, as several told me, in my courses they actually learned something. So - there's still a lot of them around.

From the NYT:

"A recent study by researchers at the University of California, Irvine, found that a third of students surveyed said that they expected B’s just for attending lectures, and 40 percent said they deserved a B for completing the required reading."

As a friend of mine said, we have gone from child abuse to child adulation. Recently minted kids have grown up hearing that their Christmas concert was the "best one in the world, ever", because of what they did.

Many younger people have no tolerance for criticism, and many are incredibly thin-skinned.

Standards have been continually readjusted. Downwards.

When I graduated from High School I didn't really know what to do for a living so I went to Mount Royal College part time while I worked. The interesting thing was that most of my instructors there believed in giving people all the help that they asked for, but they did not see the point in lowering the standards in order to pass more students.

The result of this was that lots of students struggled and failed, and those that were not kicked out of school soon learned to perform at a level which was (at least) good enough to pass most of their courses.

When I transferred to the University of Calgary it became clear that standards had been lowered as they allowed more students into fields in order to have (roughly) the same percentage of students pass their classes. Even the students that had (typically) received C- grades at Mount Royal College suddenly because B+ or A- Students at the University of Calgary because of these lowered standards.

I had too much fun in High School and at 19 some friends and I got the great idea to "go back to school" while getting gov't money. To make a long story short, everyone was in one class and there was one instructor. They had some old math text books, they were handed out and it began. It was at that time the instructor said " I'm not a math teacher, but if we go through this text together I'm confident we will all learn something". Within two days the doors were locked because no one was approved for funding, the school was a sham.

At the time I was blinded by the prospect of free beer money. I am thankful that I didn’t try that school a year earlier, screw myself over, and cost myself $$$. The social worker had the nerve to tell me to “get a job” later that month. I did, and I hated it. Getting a job in the end was my main motivator to get a proper education so I could have a career.

“… people with careers should shut the F up, as most people have jobs. With careers, there is never enough time “Its 5:30, dammit”. In a job, there’s too much time “9:15, F**k”.” Chris Rock

Long time ago when I was a brash young'n, I was a teacher in a school in the Arctic. Sounds like the same scenario except, because the students were all Inuit, I was a racist for giving real marks and I wasn't a good teacher, because everyone knows, women are better teachers than men.

wrt to my comment.

I often wonder if I'd been a minority would that social worker have told me to "get a job"? My best friend didn't get that lecture, he is black, and he was approved for more "assistance". In this case reverse racism forced me to better myself; or, was it racism that held my friend back?

I wasn't ready for serious study at 17 so I joined the navy. At age 30 I was so I started part-timing at a university in Halifax that often enough sends football teams to the VC. I went full time in 98 for two years to complete my undergrad. Well...

As a 'mature' student, it was quite obvious that many of my classmates weren't 'ready' for U. In some cases, blatant cheating on homework and ill-prepared term papers were the norm. Even some profs helped out on homework 'labs'. In one 4th year, 2nd semester class, the prof told us that of the 40 of us returning, only two could write well, 8 were so-so, and the remaining 30 - couldn't even put simple sentences together.

My point is that I think there are many, many young people wasting their time in U because they think that it's the normal progression from HS into adulthood. And we can thank some media, many HS counsellors, and, in some cases, gov't for creating this mess. Meanwhile, the trades paying fair $ go without. Go figure.

I have a question

wot's an IQ?????

PhilM, they don't call it Robie Street High for nothing!

Arrgh, Please Stop!!!

It is reading week here at my institution, and this discussion is all too familiar - it's causing severe flashbacks.

There is an entitlement mind-set in students these days, unfortunately put there by people of my generation. I have colleagues who on one hand say "we need to maintain our standards" and then in the next breath say things like "make sure the exam questions are in the same order as the material in the text or it could confuse students..."

The longer I stay in this job, the more I understand the phrase "education is wasted on the young." Unfortunately, the environment in the classroom is going to force me to make a career change one day, probably sooner rather than later, but it is tough when your students don't want to experience the journey of learning (it wasn't always that way, not when I started this gig).

An interesting aside to this post.A few years ago I was reading up on a southern Alberta tribe for personal reasons. I perused the demographics and came across some strange statistics. This tribe had a graduation rate of about 15% from high school. But close to 35% claimed a college education. Hmmm,strange indeed.

I was recently on the faculty of a private school that was having enrollment problems. They would admit anyone who was breathing and could pay the tuition and would not flunk out anyone for any reason.

I assigned a term paper for one of my classes. One of the students, a young man from Argentina, turned in a paper that didn't read at all like a student's paper. I entered the first sentence into google and voila! The kid had copied a news article off the internet, put his name on it, and turned it in.

I gave him an F for the course. The dean called me into his office and scolded me, told me to change his grade to a C.

Let me throw a cruve ball into here, with a spit-coating of irony: Bad study habits are coddled in university because the tuition fees have flew up. The more expensive the education, the more prone the payee is to saying "Who's the customer here!?" Ironically, the non-studious sons of the rich cats used to be notorious for this kind of bad behavior, with a similar rationale.

I'm not suggesting that social consewrvative pick up the tuition-free education ball and chain, but I ask you to think what a socon would make of it...

As an aftertought,what do you expect with the likes of Gore,Pelosi,Huessin/Michele Obama,CBC etc? The world is a cesspool,and the sheeple keep letiing these people shit into it!

A Toronto Star article indicates that some can't even be bothered going to all the trouble of plagiarizing, they go straight to the purchased diploma, bypassing the middleman...

"For $3,000, Peng Sun can turn anyone into an instant graduate from the most prestigious universities in the country.

For another $1,000, he'll provide authentic-looking transcripts for the dozens of classes you never attended.

All you need is a bundle of cash and the nerve to meet him in a parking lot somewhere in the GTA. In return you will get a forged university degree virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

We know this because for $4,000, Peng Sun made a York University MBA diploma for a Star operative posing as a Toronto bank employee who needed one quickly to land a high-paying job in China. In three days, Sun produced documents that would take years and hefty tuition fees for a real student to earn.

Education leaders say the widespread production of bogus degrees damages the academic system and police warn that forged documents create security risks."

http://www.thestar.com/article/549772

I've instructed in continuing ed programs at the community college and trained supposedly professional and university graduated employees in an enterprise / corporate setting. I've managed training programs and done the face time with all sorts of groups.

One thing is consistent across the board.

The people under the age of 40 are almost universally incapable of applying anything they have supposedly learned in school to new experiences.

The attitude almost and I stress ALMOST universally is that "I've already done my time in school and paid my dues."

Most think all that is required of them is to memorize enough to get past a test and then forget they ever were there.

Some cases were extreme. Like the folks who took masters in commerce and wanted to walk into senior manager or director positions, while they were incapable of understanding or completing simple process forms, following directions or even accurately repeating information. Simple clerical and admin job functions.

If it came to applying a set of rules to an unanticipated scenario..... not a chance.

"Scholarship" and "professionalism" are decadent ideas of the hegemonic, male dominated Western Capitalist System and therefore to be despised.

Oh, wait...

Daniel M Ryan 716 PM - excellent point - we have a "satisfaction guaranteed" mentality now

Come to think of it this post is worthy of more comment.

Consider that one of the root causes of the epidemic plagiarism and other forms of cheating is the over reliance of educators on electronic communication and document management.

It would go a long way IMO if the profs were required to actually READ the papers and the students were FORCED to hand write them.

Of course that is unlikely to happen.

Another approach would be to invest in some serious analytic software systems and force everyone to undertake all communications, tests and papers in the E-realm.

Take the power to ignore fraud away from the profs and let the impartial machinery filter the garbage.

Plagiarism has never been an issue for liberal leftists. Ask the Reverend Doctor Dorcas Gordon, Principal of Knox College at the University of Toronto if plagiarizing a sermon without reference to its true author ever prevented anyone from moving forward.

When one realizes that most govt members never read the bills they are signing, aka the stimulus bill of 1000+ pages, why would any student think he/she should read or understand anything.
They no longer teach writing in school, you have printers and computers, no need for spelling, there is spell check and grammar. So why are we surprised they pick papers off the net and copy them. At least they had to research the topic and read (more than the title, I hope) to get the right essay/book report. At least they must have learned something, just not the right things.

@Erik Larsen, 9:54 PM:

Thanks. I couldn't get over the paradox of normally hard-working students cheating for an extra "edge," given the usual suspects in the days of auld.

From what I recall, school discipline is an easier process when students have reason to feel grateful to the school. One of the reasons why more rigourous corporal punishment was put up with in the old private schools was the sub-economic fees - there were no legitimate grounds for a "satisfaction guaranteed" mentality.

(Also, private schools back then were either church-affiliated or military academies...)

I also have taught at a large Toronto university
(probably the same one as ET).

On one final examination a student forgot
to remove his large cheat sheet
before handing in his examination booklet.

At said large Toronto university
faculty are not permitted to penalize students
merely because they have cheated.

They are required to 'confront' the student
in the presence of other faculty members.

In my case
I had to waste three afternoons
meeting with the student and the Dean of Science.

The student claimed that while he was away from his desk
some other student must have inserted the 'cheat sheet'
in his examination booklet.

At the end of the third meeting
the Dean decided that there was not sufficient evidence
to penalize the student.

No action was taken against him.

2 year colleges? Friends, I can tell you this for a fact - 4 year universities produce as many idiots as the 2 year programs.

Hell, look at the arts students. Sure, some have talent and do great work. Some are absolutely pathetic and they get degrees too. In the real world I see the work done by our hostess and she can mop the floor with any of them talent-wise.

The accredited universities are cranking out idiots like sausages too. IQ scores and diplomas and degrees are no indicator of ability.

Presbyterian - I know a "Reverend" that plagiarizing a sermon ...

...got defrocked. Depends on the church.

Individual "sin" is not the issue. The issue is institutional response. And here, I am afraid to say (mea culpa), we fail miserably.

The good captain rants on 2-year "diploma mills". The only thing different in the universities is the "distribution". The bottom third is functionally incapable of independent thought, or could not be bothered. We asymmetrically lift the tail of the distribution, passing people from first year to second, washing a few more out with each successive year.

Well, some of us do. Some give all A+.

Yeah - expulsion for academic misconduct is very difficult to get by one's colleagues. No idea why - the common practice is to wear down the worst of the students.

It's probably the case at most institutions - look at all the weird lawyer--thingies that Harvard turns out.

At some point in the installation of a new Pope he is placed on a chair or bench and two young priests look under his robe to make sure that he has a couple. I swear that there is a similar part of the installation of academic administrators, where their senior colleagues make sure that they are totally lacking in that area.

Attended my high school reunion this past summer and had a real chuckle over the number of my former classmates that now sport multiple degrees. Most of these classmates never opened a book that didn't have Zane Grey for an author. For some of the others Zane Grey took too much thought. Most of these former classmates were in some branch of government where their jobs demanded they have certain 'credentials' and the university seemed only to happy to oblige by providing them. Were I given to conspiracy theories I would believe that the government makes itself look important by building schools. However the schools look foolish when empty so the government keeps insisting that credentials increase which keeps the schools full, but of course if the students don't pass the course they couldn't keep their job and once again the government would look foolish.

While not university related I saw the most ridiculous demand for credentials today. As part of my duties I accompanied one of my charges to his work place. At one point some wide material had to be brought through a too narrow door on a forklift. My charge has been driving a forklift for over 20 years and this maneuver comes almost as second nature to him because he does it so often. However my charge was not at his usual work place and because he does not have his 'ticket' he was prevented from moving the material. The only person who had a ticket didn't even know which lever to pull to lift the load. My charge did his best to coach the newbie but even his best efforts weren't good enough because the newbie hit both sides of the brand new door frame. I hope they were able to straighten the door track sufficiently to close the door before closing time.

I love it when post secondary education gets discussed on SDA. All of the grunts who decided to forgo further intellectual development and operate heavy machinery instead, come out of the woodwork to denounce universities. While they're attempting to prove that a university education doesn't necessarily amount to a 'smarter' individual, (a truth I completely agree with by the way) their reasons for lambasting post secondary learning have more to do with the insecurity they have as a result of having less formal education than others. They didn't go to university so therefore it must suck. Psychologists call this cognitive dissonance. I also sort of see it like a derivative of small man syndrome. One can then imagine that its especially amplified in the case of men who are both short and undereducated. lol.

Charles, can you be more of an idiot? Most of the criticism is coming from people who TEACH at universities!

The post makes me appreciate my military training; you either can do "it" (whatever is being tested) or you cannot do it.
My father told of his radar officer training at West Point Grey station in WW2. Every Saturday morning they would march to the exam hall and spend the morning writing an exam. At 1600 h the latest transfers to new station assignments (ie those who had failed the morning's exam) was posted. The trucks to the train station leave at 1830h, ie failures have 2 1/2 hours to pack up and clear off the station.

Yeah "cognitive dissonance" is rampant.
In most company don't ever admit to a post-secondary education if you can avoid it----
Irecall in my misspent youth having a several year contract with the US government. When this was renewed, I was promoted and sent to a University of their selection, to a course of study of their selection. I passed the required entrance test easily, and it was hinted that my competance was the result of maturing rather than a Canadian Gr 12 ed.
The courses were never really a challenge....memorising torte law excepted....my overall impression was that my degree did not merit bragging about........it secured my commision and a decent pay grade.
ROTC types got passed over frequently but I seemed to have a charmed existance much like the academy types.....one of my supperiors found my use of the spelling "armour" rather than "armor" charming. I guess I could chew gum and walk.

edit:
That's.......SUPERIORS

Charles: Darling the only cognitive dissonance is the one you feel when you travel out of Toronto... gosh the poor boy is quite useless past the subway line isn't he...

Tut tut people, Vice President Biden says that plagiarism is okay if it is not “malevolent,”.

“Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr., fighting to salvage his Presidential campaign, today acknowledged ''a mistake'' in his youth, when he plagiarized a law review article for a paper he wrote in his first year at law school.
Mr. Biden insisted, however, that he had done nothing ''malevolent,'' that he had simply misunderstood the need to cite sources carefully. “

It’s also okay to plagiarize the life of a descendant of Welsh coal miners or a Massachusetts blueblood.

http://tinyurl.com/bzm64f

Charles is right folks. Alot of people still feel intimidated by people who claim to be educated - and you shouldn't.

As for you Charles, anyone that works for their cheque, cares for their families and employers and does a good job - is worthy of your courtesy and respect. That applies equally across the board from the management right on down to the guy that sweeps the floor. There is no shame in driving a forklift, flipping hamburgers or stocking shelves. It beats the heck out of welfare, contrary to the liberals out there. These people are pulling their weight and can take pride in at least having a work ethic. Without them doing their jobs, guys like you can't do yours.

I would be surprised if I use more than 10% of what I learned in school on the job. In fact - I really didn't start learning until AFTER I graduated and went to work, and I am still learning today. The truly educated man is the one that knows who to respect and why.

Charles is right folks. Alot of people still feel intimidated by people who claim to be educated - and you shouldn't.

As for you Charles, anyone that works for their cheque, cares for their families and employers and does a good job - is worthy of your courtesy and respect. That applies equally across the board from the management right on down to the guy that sweeps the floor. There is no shame in driving a forklift, flipping hamburgers or stocking shelves. It beats the heck out of welfare, contrary to the liberals out there. These people are pulling their weight and can take pride in at least having a work ethic. Without them doing their jobs, guys like you can't do yours.

I would be surprised if I use more than 10% of what I learned in school on the job. In fact - I really didn't start learning until AFTER I graduated and went to work, and I am still learning today. The truly educated man is the one that knows who to respect and why.

Intelligent Americas seeing this will be wishing they had a leader who can think and speak like our Prime Minister. Not one furrowed brow throughout the interview!

"....... a derivative of small man syndrome. One can then imagine that its especially amplified in the case of men who are both short and undereducated. lol.
Posted by: charles at February 19, 2009 1:14 AM"

I LOVE THIS COMEBACK :CHARLES ..... Most of the criticism is coming from people who TEACH at universities!

Nicely done, Ha ha ha!!!

Obviously Charle went to university..........

What is really pathetic is that I graduated from UWO and the description of most of the "students" works there as well.

Plagiarism and all.

US Ivy league schools are well known for being hard to get into but easy once you get there. Mark inflation practically originated there.

Charles, why so sensitive? Guilty conscience perhaps? Little cutty/pasty in yer recent past there, buddy?

Personally I have a BA in Anthropology and a Masters in Physical Therapy. I fully agree with The Captain's original post and most of what's been commented here.

85% of my PT education was health-and-safety government mandated bull$h1t of the first water. Complete and utter waste of time, present only because of credential creep, make work projects in bureaucracies and as an excuse to reach deeper into my pocket.

During my mandatory attendance at these courses I used to amuse myself by asking questions the instructors couldn't answer and writing provocative term papers they hated but couldn't argue with. (Other students just cheated their asses off I'm sure, but I can't be bothered with that. Its too hard.)

One of my favorites was the biomedical research course. It was taught by this very earnest, very liberal lady, very Birkenstocks with wool socks, Woodstock attendee type. As one of our lectures we were treated to a whole hour on the CDC's gun control project, the eeeeviles of land mines and a few other anti-violence goodies. We were told our term papers would be accompanied by oral presentations, and would be on the subject of violence reduction research. My term paper and presentation were of course on gun control in the medical literature, and why it was a steaming pile of unscientific, intellectually dishonest anti-human propaganda.

The poor lady nearly had a hernia. She hated it! She hounded my logic, questioned my facts, looked up all my citations... and finally gave me a B. She worked harder for that B than I did.

Fast forward to now, I've been vindicated by the US Congress and no less than a retrospective study by the National Academy of Science, which fount The Phantom to be correct. I guess my oral presentation could have been better, eh?