"In the contemporary world, the world of human rights, when you call a person a right-winger, this is the first step toward his or her delegitimization. "
The Left blessed the Jews as the victim "par excellence," always a great partner in the struggle for the rights of the weak against the wicked. In return for being coddled, published, filmed, considered artists, intellectuals and moral judges, Jews, even during the Soviet anti-Semitic persecutions, gave the Left moral support and invited it to cry with them at Holocaust memorials. Today the game is clearly over. The left has proved itself the real cradle of contemporary anti-Semitism.
Read the whole thing.
i am waiting for the day it will be major war but i wont blame israel.who can take sustained attacks without doing something?
I had to check who the journalist was...thought it might have been Neil McDonald...
The Dr. Dawgs of the world love to bitch about the "neo-cons", but those neo-cons (from Howorwitz to the Kristols etc) all left the Left because of its growing anti-semitism (among many other reasons).
Loving the underdog is a Lefty trait. I know because during my time on the Left, this was the "reason" (if you can call it that) for adopting this or that cause. Underneath all the fake statistics, junk science and made-up history, folks would admit after a few beers that they just "felt sorry" for this or that far away group of victims (even though they hated themselves and their immediate comrades)
A lot of leftists are weaklings and losers who resent success and scoff at hard work, so of course they project their victimhood on underdogs and love to "rescue" them. All psych 101 stuff.
"Now is the time for intifada" - dawg
Meanwhile, Sarah Silverman shills for Obama, attempting and succeeding to get Florida grandparents on board:
The Great Schlep, indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgHHX9R4Qtk
Interesting, is there at least 1 right-winger w/o left background in the West? There are lots in the former Soviet Union, you know. Makes one wonder? Not me.
Hammer the shit out of them Israel and close your borders to them. If the general population wonders where their next meal is coming from they might take exception to the militants setting up shop in their neighborhoods and do something about it, maybe.
Dawg is downright giddy realizing that his traffic has somehow increased greatly.
Imagine, if you will, your next door neighbour starts chucking grenades over the fence into your yard. So you ask the cops (UN) to do something but all they say is you shouldn't even be living there. What's a person to do?
Keep in mind that your "neighbours" are actually squatters that are living in the lot you vacated so as to not be so close to the original neighbours who have always tried chucking crap over the fence in the first place.
Yeah, Israel is living in a bad neighbourhood but moving out is not an option.
You should have put a health warning on the link - I didn't know you were sending me to Dawg's site. Now I'll have to clean out my computer. I see he is spouting the usual rubbish about 'civilian' casualties whereas this seems to be a highly successful military take-out with minimal "collateral damage".
The only disproportionate response I see is that of the middle-eastern Islamofacists and their left-wing dawg-arse-faced comrades over the existence of the independent Jewish state of Israel.
When you have a group of people that live in a totalitarian Islamic society that indoctrinates their children with hate in kindergarden, there can never be peace. This is not to mention support from Islamist supporting countries like Iran and Syria on it's borders.
Sooner or later, Israel will nuke them. They are not going to be slaughtered in the name of some 7th century goatherd pedophile.
Israel: Yes good move and long, long overdue.
Let's hope that this isn't just more pre-election optics. This Olmert-Livni-Barack team has been utterly, profanely, criminally jewicidal. Optics like the earlier violent removal of Jewish "settlers' from the "occupied territories".
Remember too that Barack only recently made sure that the Gazan enemy got 90 truck loads of food, fuel and other "humanitarian" supplies. Eldad (sp?) is trying to get him indicted for treason, which won't happen of course but that's what it was!
But even if Kadima optics fail, it looks like Netanyahu will be more of the same.
dr.dawg doesnt want cussin or trolls,he invented both and cant stand to be on the receiving end.he should go to Gaza to aid in their fight as the socialists did in Spain many years ago.he may be able to write a book like Hemmingway,but he should also buy a Purdy if he wants to fill those shoes.
You're a much better judge of photographic images than I, Kate...doesn't that last picture of the "casualties" on Dawg's blog look a little off to you? I tried to point it out to him but he doesn't want to take my word for it.
Just curious...
Trees are the new Jews.
http://tinyurl.com/86v388
Been saying for years that the leftards are just useful tools for bloody tyrants.
As for Israel leveling Gaza ... the only reason it took this long to get going on that most justified project is that they first had to make sure no Israelis were living there. That being accomplished officially two years ago and having gone through the motions of peace making with those murderous bastards, all the while suffering unending abuse and physical attacks, the time has arrived.
Bulldozers should be deployed ASAP to complete the return of Gaza to it's natural state.
Dawg, who I believe carried his deep-seated hatred toward Jews from Eastern Europe, is emblematic of the thinking of the Radical Left in Canada. Take his precepts forward and you don't end up with a bunch of Jews as victims, you end up with a lot of dead Jews and no Israel.
Make no mistake, this is PRECISELY what NDP supporters and Red Liberals in Canada want.
A "Proportional Response" is typical of cozy but completely phoney phrases used by the Vapid Left. Using such an approach simply extends a dispute between peoples on in perpetuity.
John McCain was deliberately misquoted and then chastised for his suggestion that American troops may remain in Iraq for 100 years. Why isn't the Left held up to the same scrutiny for their similar suggestion about Israel?
Why won’t the other neighboring Muslim countries take in their “Brothers”?
Including Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon or even the most ardent Palestinian supporters in the MSM Iran & Saudi Arabia.
Not take them into slums, like the Lebanese did in limited number and mistreat them, but give them a real home. They seem to relish in the fact that their kinfolk are stuck in squalor close to Israel where they can be supported with weapons and Islamic slogans.
Here are some interesting videos for those that buy into the Palestinian propaganda. Once away from the MSM you find that much of the violence against the Palestinians is staged fake footage, which has earned the name “Pallywood”.
Well worth a watch……….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL1ClZgtoeI
"Why won’t the other neighboring Muslim countries take in their “Brothers”?"
Why fool around, strapping explosives onto some brainwashed kid, when they have a whole colony of martyrs right on the front line.
"The left has proved itself the real cradle of contemporary anti-Semitism."
Yes, fundamentalist right-wing zealots are especially fond of demonizing Jews who have first-hand experience of the deleterious effect of savage and inhumane policies towards Palestinians, upon the psyche of the citizens of Israel.
Noam Chomsky, here: http://www.chomsky.info/books/reader01.htm
Well, as usual, I'll disagree. Not with our assessemtn of Dr. Dawg - there is hardly an issue that he and I agree on - and I include even the weather. But with the article.
First, fascism is not an ideology of 'the right' but of the left, i.e., it is focused around the authoritative weight of the collective rather than the individual.
Second, I disagree that there is any essential right of any people to a land base. Anywhere. Land occupation is not a fundamental right but a political decision. Therefore, the UN decision to create a state of Israel as well as a state of Palestine was a political decision for both peoples.
There are several problems. The Arab States objected to this political decision and Israel refuses to acknowledge any Palestinian rights to such a UN declared state.
Its expanding settlements of the land set aside for the Palestinian state - which is now more than half taken up by these settlements, the violence of the settlers against Palestinian neighbours and farms, the hostility of each side to each other, rendered as such by a generation of interactive hatred - means that the future reality of such a state is fragile if not impossible.
Third, the fact that Israel, like its Islamic neighbours, tied its political identity to a religious identity makes it difficult to criticize these states. If you criticize the Arab States, you are accused of 'Islamophobia'. If you criticize Israel's political behaviour, you are accused of 'antisemitism'. But these states should not be immune to criticism and merging the two (political and religious) is incorrect!
I criticize Israel's refusal to enable and acknowledge a Palestinian state and its expanding settlements and its turning a 'blind eye' to settler violence.
Fourth, it is true that the Islamic fascist ideology has made use of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but the roots of Islamic fascism are most certainly not found within this conflict. They originate in the political and economic tribal infrastructures of the Arab States, which have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with Israel-Palestine.
But, it's a handy externalization of these internal Arab problems - to divert and focus internal anger to Israel, the Jews and the US. But the two situations are separate and we shouldn't assume that solving the Israel-Palestine conflict will do a thing to reduce Islamic fascism.
I also think that the Arab States in reality don't give a hoot for the Palestinians, whom they view as low-class ignorant peasants.
Finally, I'm puzzled by what I see as the knee-jerk support of Israel in so many posts. What puzzles me is why do we not expect that a people, the Palestinians, who were like Israel, promised a state of their own - and who have seen it denied for over a generation, who have seen that promised land base eaten up by more and more Israeli settlements, who are kept as second and third class economies by not being allowed full water rights, or funding to develop, or land to develop.....why, why, do we think it terrible when they are filled with anger, hatred, despair, revenge? That's what puzzles me. Why do so many of us in the West expect the Palestinians NOT to be angry?
What do I think needs to be done? First, the structural change is required. The ideologues, including those behind Israel, think that first, an emotional and intellectual change should appear, ie, the Palestinians should stop hating and attacking Israel. Then and only then, the narrative goes, will they be 'allowed' to have a state.
My own view is that the emotions and intellectual changes can only come AFTER the structural change. That means that Israel has to remove all its settlements from the West Bank. All of them. And affirm the reality of a Palestinian State. The international community ought to help them set it up. The two states will be economically linked but politically separate. I even suggest that these two states will be closer to each other than to others; that is, Palestine would be closer, economically and eventually, emotionally, than it would be to the Arab States.
But, bombing them into submission won't work; it will inflame the endless hatred even more. We've got evidence of that for a generation. Enabling them to live in their own state - that's a structural change - and I think that would make all the difference.
But I know that I'm almost alone in this view. Oh well.
the below is good view talk from palstinian point of view to see waht they see that
1) for a second forget jewish muslim and christian
as i tried to explain in past one year put war and cold blooded murder of evern 20 not 200 from any party to civilan for reveng and use army is not proper in any way in populated civilian areas
jesus must help us out of hand of this jewish this time
send your army rather than afgantan to isreal
://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081227%2fgaza_airstrikes_081227
More than 200 dead after Israeli air strikes on Hamas
2) if you look it real history of jesus as most belive it was jewish conspiracy lead to jusus planed to kill by hand of jewish while muslim are not agree with Mr. Mel Gipson with film he made it and if you search engine in all version of jesus also you know none really go by real historyof death of jesus in the film
://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335345/
it was not muslim who said jewish who killed
jesus we think jesus was saved in that day
but look how bad jewish what they done
to all people in world over
their igonrace so far
://www.jesusfilm.org/
://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/04/24/verhoeven.jesus.ap/index.html
://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6397373.stm
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_(1979_film)
3) by consider all hitler and viloance against jewish also we should not let anybody to the same job tojewish but this land of isreal now used to tortured teh same method hitler did agains good jewish to used against both jewisha and muslim while in kill few days in isreali attacked i can guranttee you can see christina died too
4)may solution to see what is greated sin and what is lowe sin in made international way to stop all peopel fight using their relgion to stop all violance by force of crimianl and internatinal and human right as well
study of made formula what is biggest sin is
New culture-relgion-rules-law to join international people together:
we need to divide greater sin separted
from small sin to made
international culture and law to go around
://islam.org/greater_sins_complete/
5)we need a judge who see and who send soldure in afganstan or in isreal or in middle east or in india by consider teach god and one rule of god for human must stan in all region and stop all god fathe movie and jewish movie with arabs
and review if head of judge in canada today is he jewish hired by conservative party do good fair job for all community not only favor for jewish and hit other community too
Conservative may need review judges over discrimination and better fair orders not to support only large but wrong company and as we know since DEC 5 2008 some thing was heard
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Harper
Supreme Court appointments by Harper chose the following jurists to be appointed as justices of the Supreme Court of Canada by the Governor General:
Marshall Rothstein (March 1, 2006 – present)
In keeping with Harper's election promise to change the appointment process, Rothstein's appointment involved a review by a parliamentary committee, following his nomination by the Prime Minister. Rothstein had already been short-listed, with two other candidates, by a committee convened by Paul Martin's previous Liberal government, and he was Harper's choice. Harper then had Rothstein appear before an 'ad hoc', non-partisan committee of 12 Members of Parliament. This committee was not empowered to block the appointment, though, as had been called for by some members of Harper's Conservative Party.[120]
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Rothstein
Marshall_Rothstein was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, to Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, he received a Bachelor of Commerce degree
====
what i know is all seen in news about all dead peopel is wrong in justice system allow people in world by havign bad jduge to do crime free using theri own revenge and hate and this must be stopped. ameen
you can not delet one crime with doing other crime each had value in justic system need to direced and need judge to made order with no conflcit of interest to above issues with laws
yup, Isreal used to phone one hour ahead of time to let the Pals know that they (isrealis) were going to level a rocket making factory. That amount of time would let the Hamass' save everything but the building. Me, I would have phoned an hour afterwards to make sure they knew their rocket factory had been destroyed:-))))
In Infidel, Hirsi Ali notes that at a very young age she is taught by the imam to hate the Jews and they are responsible for all the evil in the world. She states she nor anyone else she had known in Somalia or Kenya had even seen let alone met a Jew. Muslims are taught to hate them and blame them for their miserable squalid lives.
It is good that Fiamma Nirenstein has finally learned that the left hates the Jews. Take a look how Rae's wife was treated by the Liberals. The Jews obviously don't fit into the leftist intelligensia mold. Stalin and Hitler should have been a clue.
"Why won’t the other neighboring Muslim countries take in their “Brothers”?"
Because the Palestinians are a different ethnicity.
ET not necessarily, I agree with what you have said for the most part and have been of that opinion for a very long time, but if you are going to use violence expect it return. The militants are the problem but until the general population rejects them and their tactics there will never be peace. The answer I believe will emerge when the Palestinians finally reject the shootem mentality and present Israel with a honest, sincere and reasonable proposal for peace and a state of their own. If this were done world pressure would dictate Israel not only listen but act.
Operation cast lead on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryOHXIx0BIU
Watch the rocket hitting what appears to be a junk yard and the 2ndary explosion. Yeah, they are innocent civilians, just happening to live on top of a kassam lab/warehouse.
No amount of 'diplomacy' is going to put an end to the blind hatred of Jews by a significant portion of Islam. It is this hatred of Jews that keeps the middle eastern cauldron boiling.
Period.
Re my post above: How do you spell 'evidence', Hamas?
ET, you wrote "My own view is that the emotions and intellectual changes can only come AFTER the structural change. That means that Israel has to remove all its settlements from the West bank. All of them. And affirm the reality of the Palestinian state."
You presuppose -- incorrectly, in my opinion -- that the Palestinians and their representatives-in-arms would agree to a peace, and would stop their aggression, if the Jews would simply behave differently, i.e. if there were "structural changes." But at Camp David in 2000 Israel offered ninety percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza, and the Palestinians responded with a terrorist campaign; early the next year Israel upped the offer to ninety-seven percent of the West Bank, and all of Gaza. Arafat rejected it outright.
For some reason which clearly has nothing to do with any lack of intelligence your analysis on the Israel issue always makes no room at any point to acknowledge the primacy of the fact that the Palestinians, as well the governments of non-neighbouring countries like Iran refuse to accept the existence of Israel, even though it's crystal-clear that the Palestinians, by rejecting the ninety-seven percent offer, were in effect saying clearly that they prefer occupation over accepting the existence of Israel.
Let me ask you a question point blank, and it's not meant to be rhetorical, I'm curious what your opinion is: if Israel offered the Palestinians one-hundred percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza, do you think the Palestinians would accept that, and agree to a lasting peace?
"if Israel offered the Palestinians one-hundred percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza, do you think the Palestinians would accept that, and agree to a lasting peace?" by EBD
My 2 cents.
Answer: No. The Hamas Charter demands the destruction of Israel. They want all the land. Period. Then there is Islam. Islam will never accept Israel for once a Muslim (though stolen)land it is always a Muslim land. There is no structure to alter with Islam.
I posted this the other day on Atlas Shrugged & dee no reason to change it.
I say screw the UN & Eurabia. Its time None Jewish North Americans made a stand in this. I stand with Israel. I will be writing my Government to that effect. Watching the State of Israel is like going back in time to Cambodia being surrounded every day. As well Saigon. Its unreasonable that a populace has to take this kind of abuse as a Nation, while others in an organization that is full of her enemies makes demands than expects them to be carried out. Unbelievable!!! Enough pandering to the Islamists. If Western civilization doesn’t make a stand, than we don't deserve to survive. To think Europe is strewn with dead North American boy's , Jewish & Gentile. That fought to free them, you would have thought they had learned something by now. Obviously not. Another thing ,why doers Israel have to wait on other Countries to bomb threats? This is as gay as it gets.
JMO
You may be a lefthole if…
There are about a dozen countries or kingdoms in the middle east give or take a few despots and tyrants. Do Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Kuwait and Bahrain have the right to exist and to exist as legislated or de facto muslim states? Does Israel have the right to exist and to exist as a Jewish state? If you think all arab-ish states have the right to exist as muslim states but that Israel does not have the right to exist as a Jewish state you may be a lefthole who will not be happy until Israel is destroyed. If you as a lefthole have one firing synapse please focus it on coming up for the reason you would not grant in a million years the right of Israel to be a Jewish state but you somehow rationalize irrational rationalizations until you are okay with muslims states that dump on women, gays and Christian infidels as a matter of course. If you could not personally pull the trigger to blow out the brains of a woman who dishonoured her husband, give this a try. It will only hurt until you talk with a few other leftholes and re-justify your “progressive” stance.
It's interesting -- and a bit of a hopeful sign -- to see the Egyptian Foreign Minister's take on the situation, which happens to coincide with mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5roptSbO3GQ
I love how the leftards love bringing up facts like 'collateral damage'. These people in Hamas are such scumbags that they intertwine themselves with civilian populations. So much so that the only way to kill them is to take innocents out with them. Hamas has no respect for human life, they know how to pull on leftist heartstrings, that is why to them the more innocents killed the better. This helps further Hama's cause in PR and fundraising. They(Hamas) have learned how to manipulate the lefties with great success.
joe - I agree with you; the neighbouring Arab States won't 'take in' the Palestinians because they are a different 'group' and are looked down on by the majority of Arabs. Again, why should they take them in? They were promised a state of their own.
Western Canadian - there is violence on both sides. It is incorrect to conclude that No Israeli harms a Palestinian and that ALL violence comes only from Palestinians. The settlers in particular can be extremely violent against Palestinian neighbours, burning their farms, shooting at them, etc.
Again, to state that after a generation of abuse, on both sides - and it is naive to claim that Israel has done nothing harmful to the Palestinians, that the Palestinians should be without anger, without rancour..and should settle down and be peaceful, renounce their anger and violence...and then, only then, when they can Show The Parent (Israel) that they are Good..then, they'll get their state. No-one believes that fairy tale. And, as we have declared with our freedom of speech, you cannot legislate emotions. After a generation of occupation, the anger is enormous.
Therefore, shaken, this 'blind hatred' has developed over a generation of despair, of occupation, of seeing settlers move into their land. Equally, no amount of 'diplomacy' is going to shake the firm belief of the settlers that this is ALL their land, and that 'god' gave it to them.
EBD - no, the agreement was not for a separate Palestinian state but only for Palestinian municipal control over towns and villages in that area. Israel retained full boundary, land, water and mineral resource, and air control. It wasn't an offer of a state..and by the way, what right does Israel have to make such an offer? The notion of a Palestinian state was offered by the UN originally but this 'offer' suggests that Israel considers that the land is theirs..to offer, to give away. No, it isn't.
Therefore, the Palestinians were right to reject such an offer for it effectively set them up as a colony of Israel.
Arafat was a corrupt dictator who certainly didn't want a democratic Palestinian state because he would lose power. But the Palestinians DID recognize the state of Israel, while Israel has not recognized a Palestinian state.
As for Iran and the other states, so what? They don't want a democratic Arab state in their midst, to suggest to their own people that a democracy was a viable alternative to totalitarian Islam. I can't see that it makes legal or political sense to insist that the Arab States recognize Israel 'or else'...no Palestinian state can be allowed. After all, we've seen some nations recognize Kosovo and others haven't.
As I said, the structural change has to come first; the emotional and ideological peace and acceptance of each others as neighbours cannot come first; it will follow the 'hard reality' which is structural.
As for Israel 'offering' the full West Bank and Gaza, as I said before, it's not Israel's land to offer. What Israel should do, is first, remove all the settlements from that West Bank; and acknowledge it as the Palestinian land base for their state.
Then, a lot of political and legal assistance will have to be moved in, preferably similar to the US assistance in moving Iraq from a non-democracy to a democracy.
Then, set up economic ties and interactions.
And yes, the hatred will die down as people move into positive interactions with each other. But, when the Palestinians see all those Israeli settlements going up, spreading and expanding on that West Bank land - what do you expect them to feel? Happiness? Or despair and hatred?
Will Israel relinquish those settlements? I can't see them doing it. Therefore - there's no hope for a solution. Since Israel will not relinquish the land to the Palestinians, then, they can't have their own state. So, the hatred and anger continues.
sounder - as I keep saying, Islamic fascism has nothing to do with the Israel-Palestinian situation. Certainly Islamic fascism has tried to merge its agenda with the I-P situation but only as a red herring to turn the gaze of their own people away from the REAL CAUSE of Islamic fascism, which is the political and economic dysfunctionality of the Arab states. The Arab states don't give a hoot about Palestinians.
Is there a solution? You can't legislate emotion; you can't beat a people into silence or feelings of peace, or acceptance of what is felt to be unfair. The solution has to be structural..the feelings and thoughts develop after a structure is in place. Will Israel remove all settlements from the West Bank and accept a genuine Palestinian state - and by genuine I don't mean municipal but national control over that land base? My own view - is No, it won't.
"Will Israel remove all settlements from the West Bank and accept a genuine Palestinian state - and by genuine I don't mean municipal but national control over that land base? My own view - is No, it won't. "
Will Hamas and the Palis remove all settlements from the West Bank(won legitamately by Israel) and accept a genuine Israel state...etc NO THEY WON'T.
There.Fixed that for you.
Well, ET, we will agree to disagree. I will, anyway. Here's the difference in our perspectives: you say that if there's structural change, then "emotional and ideological peace" will "follow." I simply do not believe that Arab enmity against Jews and the state of Israel is caused by Israeli actions -- it's inflamed by them, I grant you -- or that Israeli concessions would reduce, instead of strengthen, those who wish to see Israel gone.
Again, we can debate the merits/reasonableness of the actions of both sides of this intractable situation until the cows come home, but what troubles me is that I see nothing in your analysis that even begins to acknowledges that the attitudes of Arabs and Islam towards Jews, an attitude that they encourage and hold volitionally, is, ultimately, the final impassable obstacle to peace. Israel wants peace, and the Palestinian leaders clearly don't. I don't see how this can be removed from consideration simply through the act of asserting that peace would be possible if the Jews behaved differently.
Mexicans aren't bombing Taos because they lost land there; aboriginals aren't bombing Toronto, etc etc etc. World history is a litany of territory lost and territory gained, and stable borders are generally the result. Israel is a tiny sliver of land dwarfed by Arab lands which, in many cases, the Palestinians have relatively recently, in historic terms, moved from.
Without discounting anything you've said, your comprehensive, ongoing excision of Arab/Muslim hatred of Jews as a thing itself, separate from the details of the attempted process and it's political manifestations, is pointed. Not in any particular post, or statement -- that's the whole point -- it's more an ongoing elision that is so absolute that it begins in the long run to loom large.
Your position, informed as it is, would be a lot more convincing to me if you acknowledged that Arab enmity towards Jews is a hugely significant, if not most important, cause of the horrifying situation.
et: I have always appreciated your point of veiw but I tend to see this in a different light. There will never ,ever be peace nor a settlement to this situation until the return of Christ. When you come from a completely secular point you have to see it your way. This whole war goes directly back to the bible and the old testament.It will never be resolved.Yes I agree that it is religion that is fueling the war but you cannot continue to teach hatred and murder to whole generations of kids and not expect this to continue on. I support the Israelis and I do not think I have a"knee-jerk" reaction. The Israelis have been more than fair with the Palestinians but when they (the Palestinians) are so filled with hatred from an early age they will not accept anything other than the death of Israel and all Israelis.
Isreal.
The late Jack Bernstein was an American Zionist who "returned" to Israel, to live and die in Israel building a Jewish nation.
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Jack.Bernstein/The.Life.of.an.American.Jew.in.Racist.Marxist.Israel.htm
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Jack.Bernstein/My.Farewell.to.Israel.htm
Any understanding of reality that doesn't begin from recognizing that Israel could cease to exist tomorrow and Muslims everywhere wouldn't magically become any less anti-Semitic, is hopelessly naive.
ET, that there is violence on both sides has been know by most everyone for some time. A violent reaction by most of the settlers is the result of frustration, not planned aggression as with thePalestinian militants. Having said that, the settlers in my view are mostly responsible for the ongoing tensions between the two sides.
The Palestinians are about to enter a era, with Obama in charge, of unprecedented opportunity. An opportunity to obtain their own State if they would as I said in my last post, put down their arms and present Israel and the rest of the world with an honest, sincere and reasonable proposal. The rest of the world would in my opinion force Israel to make concessions and come to an agreement. Do I think it could happen, not really.
You know. I hate to say this,but have just realized that ET is of the lefty intelligensia persuasion.Diploamcy.Yeah.That works for thugs,the Useless Nations,and terrorists.I suggest to you,ET. Go to Gaza,and try your wisdom there with Hamas,Hezbolla,etc.
And before you start,been to Gaza,and all I got was shit on and a lousy t-shirt.
Great and generous posts EBD.
ET: As for Israel 'offering' the full West Bank and Gaza, as I said before, it's not Israel's land to offer.
Well, yes it is. They took it in a defensive war against 5 Arab states. UN 242 did not require Israel to vacate THE land, but SOME of the land (the indefinite article in the original French), yet to be determined. The original borders were not defensible -- a minimum requirement for a sovereign state. However, sadly, the Arab states (not the make-believe "Palestinian" people) wouldn't agree to negotiate its return (The three no's rejection from Khartoum (sp?)) so it became a kind of limbo. Not Israel's fault.
Rule #1 in negotiating is to only give up something in exchange for something equally valued: for Israel that something was a strong unequivocal acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist in peace within secure defensible borders. That has NEVER been achieved. It is utterly false to say that the "Palestinians" recognized Israel's right to exist. Arafat made vague statements (in English, for the infidel ear) to this effect but the PLO charter which clearly stipulated the destruction of Israel was never modified.
There is not one iota of a difference between Fatah and Hamas in this matter. It is a great tragedy that the West, and Israel itself, confinues with the fiction of Fatah as a peace partner.
As to Saudi Arabia's laughably phony "peace plan", it spoke of a "normalization" of relations with Israel ( whatever the hell that is) while pushing for a "right of return" for the grandchildren of the original refugees as well as Arabs who moved there seeking a better economic future which the Jews created. Never forget: post 1967 was the golden age for the "Palestinians" who would tell you this if they didn't fear being thrown from tall buildings.
"Right of Return" of course means the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel. Period.
Anybody looking at a map of the area intuits that two states in "Palestine" are not viable -- that a unitary state for Arabs and Jews living in harmony and with full equality is the ideal outcome. But it is not to be -- EVER -- because Arabs have a irreversible and murderous hatred of Jews and have a preternatural inability to live alongside Jews enjoying full legal equality.
ET, EBD is absolutely right in citing the looming absence of this central fact in your analysis.
I think ET's analysis would be correct if Israel's opponents
were rational actors, but they are not, so it is not correct.
I agree with EBD that the main obstacle to peace in the ME is that the altogether rabid and unreasonable "Arab enmity towards Jews is a hugely significant, if not most important, cause of the horrifying situation".
Western Canadian's suggestion—which (s)he immediately admits is altogether unlikely—that the Palestinians "put down their arms and present Israel and the rest of the world with an honest, sincere and reasonable proposal” is magic thinking: it’s not what terrorist polities do.
I have much less sympathy for the Palestinians than I do for Israel, which is being treated absolutely abysmally by the left, including those weasel entities, the UN and the EU*. As a c/Conservative in this country, I altogether identify with Israel: no matter what it does, the “progressives” will condemn it. I say, it should use the power it has to protect the only democracy in the ME (versus backward and thuggish Muslim fiefdoms and theocracies) and just do what it needs to do.
*I’m delighted that PMSH refused to send any Canadian delegates to the racist—anti-Israel—Durban 2. Enough is enough.
Bravo, Me No Dhimmi and Vitruvius! Thank you for those fine analyses.
ET - you have NOT answered EBD's point-blank question. Let me rephrase it to remove your wiggle room:
If Israel acknowledged that that Palestinian State should be one-hundred percent of the West Bank and all of Gaza, humbly apologized for past occupation, and made financial reparations for their past misdeeds, do you think the Palestinians would accept that, and agree to a lasting peace?
Justthinkin said,
"I hate to say this,but have just realized that ET is of the lefty intelligensia persuasion."
I think I'll get my popcorn, this should be good. Justthinkin, you havent read many of ET's posts have you, because left wing is about the last thing I would call her. Intelligensia...ulm no...academic, yes. We will see how patient she is tonight.
That being said I will chime in on Et's side, in general. The settlements are an impediment to peace, which I grant may never happen even if the land is returned. But I can guarantee you there will never be peace if the West Bank is not used for a Palestinian state.
The only oher alternative is a one state solution where Palestenians/Arabs are granted full citizenship in the state called Israel. In other words Israel becomes a multi ethnic, secular state. Doubt that will happen. But this raises the crux of the problem, what do we as a secular, officially non ethnic state do with thes states that profess to be a "home for (insert group)". This inclues Israel but also Pakistan, created as a home for muslims. And then what do we do, as in what is or position, when the aboriginals of europe ever decde to take back their land...when we see expulsions from Europe, we will see it before 2020.
We only objected a little when the ethnic Chiese were kicked out of Viet Nam, the infamous boat people.
I dont know the answer, I think it will vary based on our interests, who is our friend etc.
On that point, Israel is a friend and ally and thy have a right to defend themselves....but Canada's interests only extend so far. For those who make the argument that all that matters is the military option then you ar condeming Israel to ultimte destruction, since they cannot survive militarily in a sea of determined opponents. Going to far will bring that down on them.
Fortunately most Israeli's arent animated by the beliefs that drive the settler movement. They just want to be left alone to pursue a life in a realtively pleasant place on the planet, excepting the humans that keep starting wars.
Anyway, I look forward to ET responding herself.
Vitruvius,
It is an equal mistake o asume that ALL of Israel's opponnents are non-rational actors.
Israel's acknowledged dillema is that it is willing to negotiate, it just doesnt know who to negotiate with. There is no "other side", there are many and all are independent.
If there is no "other side", how
can the other side be rational?