I say that even though I was deeply torn on the question of backing Kosovo independence at the time, calling it “a classic case of the logical dictates of Realpolitik clashing with our moral positioning and building soft power equity.” What’s done is done at this point: Kosovo is independent. Indeed, the very essence of Pandora’s box is that, once opened, it can’t be closed again.
But Russia warned us then that “it will set a dangerous precedent for secessionist movements across the former Soviet Union, including Chechnya and Georgia.”
More from Richard Fernandez and Tigerhawk.
(Related links welcome in the comments.)
Poor Russia. Enslaver of half of Europe, murder of tens of millions, partner with Hitler in the consumption of Poland. Poor Russia, sniff. And now, she who complains of separatist movements, come to the aid of……a separatist movement. (Well, it’s logical to Russians thugs, anyways) And, of course, it’s the west fault that we didn’t stuff billions in the pockets of Moscow Mafia, that the poor schlubs had to go out and steal it themselves, and now that they have screwed over everybody from suitcase salesmen to Shell and BP, well, now that their rep is worse than an African kleptocracy , they’re short of cash and can’t buy expertise for money or love as anyone with good technical skills and ability to run any of the countless small to medium size technical companies needed for a modern state, lets out for the west.(Cosmetic, whores, and luxury car companies excluded).\
Russia. Slavs. A cold weather Africa.
Paul (the other): I could not say it better!
PAUL (the other)
I see a lot of harping about the precedent set by the actions of NATO in the balkans is a non issue, Russia had no rights in the area, they were/are interlopers. So the two situations aren’t comparable.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your post, ‘cept that Russian pride may also be a motivatinf factor. As has been noted, this is not just a “sudden” situation, it’s been simmering for awhile, andit appear that someone (probably Georgia) tried playing their cards. Possibly to get Europe to change their minds.
Legacy Moralist says: “Let’s not discuss this in terms of right and wrong, let’s drop the pretense that we are good people, with good values, who wish to see the right thing done, and admit we are bad people, with bad values, who will use this event for our own selfish aims, period, OK?”
I admit no such thing. To my mind Georgia is one of those “can’t they BOTH lose?” situations. What we have here is at least two semi-totalitarian power structures going at each other. There’s nothing good in this for anybody who lives in the region, just the local “nobility” which consists of whoever has the most soldiers this week. Gang war writ large.
That’s what I mean when I say business as usual for Europe. Its what inevitably happens when the sovereignty of the individual is out of fashion. The power elite grinds up the peasantry to pursue their own ends, whatever they may be. History of Europe is replete with it. Years of disgusting war relieved by brief periods of exhaustion we call “peace” these days.
Locally, our very own Canadian power elite is beavering away at our very own individual sovereignty. The moral course is to resist them, and resist to whatever extreme is required for their defeat.
Victory would look like a government about a tenth the size of what we have right now, with a tiny little budget and not much to say about anything that goes on in Canada. Pretty much an army, cops and road maintenance would be about right. A Canadian citizen should be able to survive official disapproval, something that right now just isn’t the case.
The Americans are no different, they have their own power elite to depose and dispose of. The current presidential choices make it abundantly clear they have their work cut out for them. Two guys clawing each other’s eyes out in pursuit of the brass ring, its friggin’ disgusting.
Have long time friends that are Russian and we always discussed politics. They have returned to Russia for a job opportunity and we still correspond.
He stated many times that Putin’s goal was to take back all the countries that left the USSR and rebuild the old empire. One of the critical things that concerned Putin was Russia’s declining and aging population and his window of opportunity was narrowing to achieve his goal.
Many western companies attempted to make money in Russia and expand their business there. The vast majority were driven out by the incredible corruption of Russia with even Canadian oil companies being stripped of their assets once they were a viable company by their Russian forced partners and supported by their corrupt courts.
Beware the Russian bear. Even super lefty Eric Margolis is warning us about them.
Why are some people here desperately trying to come up with excuses for Russia’s invasion of Georgia?
Russia does not need an excuse, it is merely continuing its centuries old imperialist tradition.
From
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24159598-2703,00.html
“GEORGIAN troops last night withdrew from South Ossetia under heavy Russian assault and were ordered to observe a ceasefire, but Moscow refused to call off its attacks and spread its offensive to support the second separatist enclave of Abkhazia”
Annexation, formal or informal, of the separatist regions, first of South Ossetia and then Abkhazia will follow shortly.
This is probably closest to the truth:
http://www.rferl.org/content/South_Ossetia_Crisis_Could_Be_Russian_Chance_To_Defeat_Siloviki/1189525.html
Paul [the other] Exactly, and can’t you just picture Obama leading Western Civilization? Putin and China will eat him up like he was just another dumb nieve peanut farmer.
Europe’s kick between the legs with the Russian energy boot is also not far off.
As my Jewish friends said about today’s world and an Obama win, it will be the first time since the Cuban missile crises that I will be buying gold as a security hedge.
Pallywood/Fat Fatima strikes again, this time in Georgia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w3li07Ple8
“Legacy moralist” is one of those irritating, folded-arms, “I’m the only free-thinker on the planet” folk who love to project their complete self-serving and selfish walk through life onto everyone else.
Of course everyone and every nation tries to make things better for it/him/herself. That’s why there’s endless conflicts throughout history. But morality does come into it. Which country lets its citizens live free lives? Which country does not shoot/imprison/poison members of the opposition to the reigning power? Which country does not have a gulag? Which country allows open criticism of its government? Which country has freedom of the press? Which country does not have reigning-despots-for-life? Which country, despite mistakes and even wrong-doing, uses taxes as much for schools, roads, hospitals, garbage-pickup, etc. as it does for weapons? That’s the country that deserves our support. That’s the country that won’t make war on other countries who are also like-wise governed, and will be the safest country for the world in the long run.
There are differences between people and countries, Mr. “I’m selfish so everyone else is too” Legacy Moralist. So try not to degrade those you meet whom you realize are better people than you, just to make yourself feel better.
Ask anyone who’s fled an “evil” country (for lack of a better word) to make it to one of the countries with the above characteristics. They know that concepts of right and wrong do make a difference.
“August 10th, 2008 6:51 am
Who’s winning Georgia Part 2
This post will try to continue gathering information on events in Georgia as they develop.”
http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/10/whos-winning-georgia-part-2/#comments
Excerpt from last comment (to date)”
“John Samford:
“What was Putin thinking, doing this now? He couldn’t wait three months, or for the spring?”
TmjUtah, what I see is perfect timing, a great cover story and a very well laid and prepared for plan.
Right now the Media ( which is a place of refuge for low order minds) is busy with the worlds longest running infomercial for steroids ( AKA the Olympics), an election campaign where their chose candidate is going down faster then a 20$ crack ho, and just to top it off, we are entering a political window where U. S> military action against Iran has either no or good repercussions against this administration.” […]
Soviet doctrine says that the best tank terrain is that which has the least anti-tank weapons. That is a way of saying that the way to avoid what is strong is to attack what is weak.
By the time the Media finishes with is coverage of the Steroid Convention, the Russians will have a suitable cover story in place, the Dismemberment of Georgia will be a done deal and the Russians will be preparing for the next campaign.”
Kevin J,
“And Russia hasn’t remotely been making any noises of re-incorporating all of Georgia into Russia”
Is regime change close enough? http://rightwingliberal.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/russias-un-ambassador-georgias-elected-leader-must-go/
Well, on the face of it Georgia’s leaders haven’t played this situation very smart at all.
You can’t go up to the biggest baddest kid in the school, smack him in the nose (while he’s watching the Olympics) and not expect to get a wallop in return.
They should have set aside their pro-US pro-NATO ambitions and been much more conciliatory towards the Russian bear from the outset.
They better just pray the Russians don’t over-run the whole country.
Fred,
Like Shevardnadze wasn’t “conciliatory” enough? Should Georgia have kept letting Russia pick its leaders? Is that what you’re saying?
The great red cross on a white background is the flag, with their coat of arms depicting St George slaying the Dragon, is Georgia.
They are 88% Christian.
Alas, the significance is lost.
As russia doesn’t have to deal with their press (their press has been cowed) and couldn’t care less about ours, I would guess that Georgia will soon look like Chechnya.
D.J. McGuire -from all reports Shevardnadze was a corrupt Russian crony.
That notwithsanding, if you have a big bully for a neighbour -you have to be alot smarter about your politics.
For instance, did the Georgians really believe the US or NATO was going to come to their aid??
That would suggest ignorance in the extreme.
be nice if the truth was present at any time in our present circumstances.
I doubt that Bismarck would be laughing here. He wouldn’t have regarded Georgia as important, but he wanted peace and stability in Europe and he didn’t want Germany to be dependent on Russia in any way. This business creates a risk of further conflict and increases Russia’s control over Germany’s prospective energy supplies, so I think Bismarck would have been concerned rather than amused.
Kosovo is similar to Georgia but, North Mitrovica is similar to South Ossetia.
As the United States Institute for Peace says, “No solution for Kosovo can last without a solution for Mitrovica.”
http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2006/0724_mitrovica.html
Serbs number only 130,000 of Kosovo’s nearly two million population. Half of Kosovo’s Serbs live in North Mitrovica and its hinterland up to the border of Serbia proper.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/08/mil-070810-voa06.htm