I say that even though I was deeply torn on the question of backing Kosovo independence at the time, calling it “a classic case of the logical dictates of Realpolitik clashing with our moral positioning and building soft power equity.” What’s done is done at this point: Kosovo is independent. Indeed, the very essence of Pandora’s box is that, once opened, it can’t be closed again.
But Russia warned us then that “it will set a dangerous precedent for secessionist movements across the former Soviet Union, including Chechnya and Georgia.”
More from Richard Fernandez and Tigerhawk.
(Related links welcome in the comments.)
Well, Russia “lost” so to speak in the Kosovo case, but now they will use the Kosovo precedence to their benefit, first to support the separatists, and tnen to annex South Ossetia into Russion proper. (I predict the latter will happen in 2009 some time.)
As 700 years of history has shown, never trust Russia and never underestimate their imperial ambitions.
Whatever one may think of Russia’s imperial history and the current Putin regime, we have to recognize that there was nothing particularly significant or inviolable about Georgia’s current borders. The breakup of the Soviet Union didn’t leave a neat line where there were ethnic Georgians on one side and ethnic Russians on the other.
It’s a complex mix of ethnicities and alliances where the people in the border regions claim allegiance to either Russia, Georgia, both and neither. After the breakup Russia extended official citizenship to many in the region, so we should not pretend that Georgia’s sovereignty over the region is absolute or inviolable. Russia has legitimate interests and historical ties to the area and Georgia will have to work out some sort of arrangement, messy as it may be.
Let’s face it – Kosovo was manufactured exactly to achieve what Russia was warning against. Serbia was demolished exactly because it had more ties with Russia than with the West. And this is going to backfire at us in the form of jihad. Well, to err is human, eh?
Well Aaron, perhaps a good old fashioned world war would be a good thing to re-focus loyalties temporarily, eh?
That continent already has an established track record in that department, after all.
Kevin,
What are those “legitimate interests and historical ties to the area”?
The Bluff. Cuban missile crisis all over again. This time the West looses. Why? The Obama appeasement and conciliatory mind set.
I wonder how secure all the other Russian breakaway States will feel when the West capitulates?
Unfortunately we have nothing to complain about. The timing Georgia has chosen was the worst that could be imagined.
Kind of a Russian Sudetenland for the zero sum, neo-facists of the Kremlin.
Idiots.
Johan – the story of empires is rarely so simple as one of conquest and subjugation. They just as often involve common alliances, economic development and common defense against other empires.
In this region even Georgia often turned to the Russian Empire as defense against attacks from the Ottoman, Turkish and Persian empires, preferring to throw their lot in with fellow Orthodox Christians rather than be dhimmis in an Islamic empire.
In this case “legitimate interests”, would include people who Russia still considers their citizens. Whether one likes it or not, over the centuries Russia has established facts on the ground that cannot simply be ignored.
Georgia’s claim to South Ossetia and Abkhazia is even weaker than Serbia’s to Kosovo. With the breakup of the SU it was a free-for-all, they had the same right to secede, being Autonomous SSRs. Georgia kept them in forcefully.
The two breakaway regions have been de facto governing themselves without any kind of UN, EU or NATO help. Kosovo is incapable of running itself yet we all jump on the recognition bandwagon. The overwhelming majority of Abkhazians and South Ossetians hold Russian citizenship and are ethnically closer to their northern neighbors.
Georgia chose the wrong tactic, confident that everyone would jump to their rescue despite their hostile behavior towards Russia. Not a good choice. Hopefully Georgians will retreat into their territory, Russians will stop at the Ossetian-Georgian border and everyone will realize how stupid this whole bloodshed was.
Shevarnadze knew how to keep the region free from armed conflict. The current President has much to learn.
Luca,
As said before, I predict Russia will officially annex South Ossetia next year (at the latest). Russian imperialism at its best.
You are absolutely right that Georgia chose the wrong tactic, especially now with a lame duck US president (and with the permanently lame EU and UN). There is no one in the West with the guts to stop Putin.
For those of you who read Swedish:
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/artikel_1542205.svd
The Swedish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Carl Bildt, says e.g. (my translation):
– The Russion offensive against and in Georgia are acts of aggression incompatible with international law and fundemental principles for security and cooperation in Europe.
– There is no right for a state to intervene in another state’s territory just because some of their citizens reside there.
– We have reason to remember how Hitler, a little more than half a century ago, used such a doctrine to undermine and attack important parts of Central Europe.
Here is an interesting commentary in English:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4488503.ece
The West created this problem in part by its actions in Kosovo. We rushed in to recognize Kosovan independence. Recognizing Kosovo as a country is about as stupid as recognizing an indian reserve as a country. Kosovo has no chance, ever, of surviving without international welfare. It’s one thing to intervene in order to stop genocide; it’s another to support useless little garbage states that will need international help forever. Recognizing Kosovo is also an anti-Russian gesture and was aimed at encouraging the further breakup of Russia.
In order to remain consistant though, we should immediately recognize Ossetia and in a month’s time, Abkhazia … after all, they “feel” more Russian than Georgian; and if Kosovan’s can go it alone, so can Ossetians, Abkhazians … and even Mohawks.
I’m with Russia on this one.
Paul. Yeah right, recognizing Kosovo is obvious justification for brutally invading Georgia.
US invades Iraq, unjustifiably IMO, and we get 24/7 coverage for months. Russia invades Georgia, and we get apologists like you, Paul.
Shamrock: Russia/Georgia and Iraq are completely different situations. I support the invasion of Iraq completely; and I even support long term US bases there. You are comparing apples and onions.
What I’m pointing to is the fact that the Georgian dice was cast by us when we made clearly anti-Russian decisions “after” the collapse of the Soviet union and when we set things in motion in the region by our foolish actions. The only logical reason to recognize useless little ethnic entities as states was to encourage more breakup of Russia.
At this point, may I add, we have no clear indication of casualties caused by either side. Georgia is acting in an agressive fashion as well, but of course to Russia haters, that doesn’t matter. I’m concerned about Russian aggression, but in this case Georgia is acting more foolishly and violently as well. After all, she started the shooting by going after “rebels”.
Both sides are to blame for the actual shooting part; in my opinion. But, we in the West are to blame for our actions dating back decades now, for setting this game in play.
Paul,
Georgia is trying to prevent a breakup of the country.
Russia is encouraging a breakup of Georgia, with the intent of annexing bits and pieces as they break lose.
I agree with you that recognizing Kosovo set a dangerous precedent. But that does not explain, nor excuse, Russia invading another sovereign country. (Although it may of course explain South Ossetia’s separatist ambitions.)
Aaron at 11.49AM is right. Serbia was demonized because of its old ties to Russia, to appease Muslims for Kosovo and, in my opinion, to also honour old German-Croatian bonds.
Georgia was to be the route of a second pipeline out of the oil-rich Caspian Sea area. By disrupting this second pipeline the Russian jackboot controls the oil going into the Ukraine and Europe.
Merkel’s belly-aching over Georgian suitability for NATO membership is coming back to bite her and Germany.
Johan: We supported the demolition of Yugoslavia in order to hurt the former Soviet Union as much as possible. Even when Russia (Pre-Putin) was on maximum friendly terms with us, we encouraged break-away states. Europe and the US dragged their feet in supporting any economic growth in Russia. Maximum post-Soviet shrinkage of Russia was our goal.
So now, who is to decide what size of state is too small to break away? If Kosavo can stand as a state, with only 2 million people and no economy to speak of … almost no region is too small. Using our own logic, it can be argued that Georgia is preventing her breakaway regions from finding their own statehood … Georgia isn’t defending herself, but is suppressing the wishes of her own people. That’s what our logic states. Russia, is simply doing what “we” did in Yugoslavia, and supporting the right of people to form their own states.
Strange … as long as any region wanted to break away from Russia or Russian friends like Serbia, we were all for it. Now though, that the shoe falls the other way, we are opposed. This is Western hypocracy at its worst.
Taking this further: If Kosovo or Montenegro can be “countries”, so can the Mohawks. Hell, a seperate Mohawk nation would likely survive better just on cigar and gun smuggling operations.
I call hypocrasy on this one … and I’m generally a raging US supporting rightwinger.
Johan – who cares what Sweden thinks or says? Everyone knows they will do absolutely nothing to actually influence the situation one way or the other. International law, yadda, yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah.
Fact is, the situation at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union was ugly. The Georgian-Russian border was merely an administrative line of no particular international significance. The territories since then have simply been disputed and they may end up as part of Russia, part of Georgia or possibly as a tiny pseudo-independent state like Liechtenstein.
But these arrangements will have to get worked out among the people involved – certainly whatever yammerings coming out of the EU or UN will be largely irrelevant.
BS, Paul. The “West” is responsible for the Russian (brutal) invasion of a sovereign country? They are not different situations v.v. invasion of another country. Your rationalization of Russian actions is, frankly, the problem.
I guess if the United States attacked Quebec because of a separatism threat, that would be OK?
US was criticized for invading Iraq, and so should Russia, instead of you apologizing for their actions, or the media looking the other way. There shouldn’t be a different standard here, but there is; that is my point.
Recognizing a state is nowhere near the same as invading a country. Paul, grow up and spare us the hypocrisy argument. Nations act in their interests, so get over it. They still should bear the burden of criticism, though, not the double standard we are witnessing now.
Paul:
I wouldn’t get too indignant over “hypocrisy”, ours or anyone else’s. The question we have to ask ourselves is, how can we best balance Russia and Germany against each other? By “we” I mean the English-speaking world plus peripheral nations that traditionally have much to fear from both of those countries. The breakup in the Balkans served primarily the interest of Germany. We went along with it because it weakened Russia. But our long-term interest lies in balancing the two. As you may infer, I do not regard Germany as a permanent friend.
Just because countries are small, they are not illegitimate. Montenegro was a viable state in the 19th century, and the Baltic republics seem to have regained their independence with few ill effects. Please do not compare them to Kosovo or Kahnewake.
Yugoslavia was an artificial state that would likely have had no democratic future. Unfortunately, they were not able to handle the break-up with the maturity of the Czechs and Slovaks.
I actually thought i had lived long enough to see the end of knee jerk apologies for the actions of Russia, and the subsequent blaming of the west for all those actions. Not a chance, apparently.
Shamrock:Nix the name calling please.
What “brual” invasion are you talking about? The facts at this point aren’t at all clear. Can you guarantee that Georgian troops have behaved in their invasion of the breakaway state?
Your arguements can be turned onto themselves, as I’ve done. Your Quebec example can also work in reverse … what if Quebec separated and “Canada” invaded Quebec in order to stop it doing so … then, the USA came to Quebec’s rescue. What then?
You see, the whole situation is convoluted; and largely because of post-Soviet Western actions. Russia was down, and we tried to hold her under. Now we have an enemy, not a friend to deal with. Instead of embracing her, we behaved like victims taunting the bully once he’s been punished. We had our chance pre-Putin, and we blew it.
I’m not justifying Russia’s attack … nor am I excusing Georgia … but I am blaming the so-called “mature” West for setting the stage. It is, after all, we who set the gold standard for small ethnic regions becoming states. So now, Georgia needs to suck it up and leave her breakaways alone; or we all need to revisit how and why we support ex-soviet breakaways … but not others.
I gather also, that you are completely opposed to the US invasion of Iraq then … or Canada’s occupation of Kandahar, the Taliban home … or Pakistani occupation of anyone of the half-dozen provinces with unique ethnic backgrounds along her Western border who don’t want to be part of Pakistan … or India’s claim to Kashmir or the Punjab … or any one of the hundreds of separation movements around the planet. You’ll be a busy person.
Paul, spare me your fallacious assumptions about Kandahar and Quebec. You don’t get what I’m saying; who cares. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about anyway.
Again, your argument that the “west” is responsible, tacitly or otherwise is not only silly, but dangerously naive.
Whether or not I, or anyone else, “supports” the invasion of Georgia is not my point. The double standard you are others expound is.
Your comments about Putin not being our friend because of “Post Soviet Western actions” makes no sense. Maybe if we invited Russia to more G8 meetings, they would be nicer to Georgia?
BTW, killing over 2000 people in the first 24 hours of a military invasion is brutal, IMO. The Russians don’t seem concerned about avoiding civilian casualties; but you don’t think that’s important, eh?
No, you’re not justifying Russia’s invasion, you’re doing much worse, blaming someone else for those actions. As I said before, a very dangerous thing to do when dealing with a country like Russia, with imperialistic ambitions and resurgent non-democratic socialism bubbling just below the surface (maybe not anymore).
If Russia wants to invade a sovereign country, they should carry the can for their actions, rather than your apologism.
DEBKAfile has several posts on the situation, including this one:
Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia
Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel…
The situation is far more complicated than most posts here.
The cossack militia has been called up.
The first time in a longtime.
If Bush’s lame-brain plan to bring Georgia into NATO had gone through, I guess we’d be at war with Russia right now. Imagine that, World War III started over some pathetic entity called South Ossetia. The Europeans, particularly the Germans, sensibly stopped Bush’s NATO expansion plans before we became permanently responsible for the defence of the quagmire that is the Caucasus. An area of the world that, frankly, makes one ashamed to be Caucasian.
FWIW? (Previously posted.)
…-
“Aug 7, 2008 14:57 | Updated Aug 7, 2008 20:16
‘2 US aircraft carriers headed for Gulf’
Two additional United States naval aircraft carriers are heading to the Gulf and the Red Sea, according to the Kuwaiti newspaper Kuwait Times.
Kuwait began finalizing its “emergency war plan” on being told the vessels were bound for the region.”
http://tinyurl.com/5hnfax (jpost)
If this is the beginning of another European war, I hope Canada and the US know enough to stay the hell out and let the EU either deal with it or tuck it’s tail and run.
As I have mentioned here before, I have a subscription to Strategic Forecasting Inc., and receive about a half-dozen geopolitical update bulletins a day by email. There’s been a flurry of messages on this matter in the last 48 hours, much of which is details, much of which you already know from other sources. And it’s copyright, so I can’t say much about it here, but I think it’s fair use for me to point out to y’all two questions that they asked in one of today’s bulletins.
“There are levels of intrigue here that we do not yet understand.
In some ways they are more important than the final outcome.”
Anyway, food for thought.
I guess I don’t know enough to understand or find reason in all this killing. What I do find most interesting is the lack of public activity by the usual demonstrators who come out to protest anything and everythind our American friends might do.
Is the silence because it’s Russia killing people or do our liberal left wing folks support and enjoy whats happening?
Yes – food for thought, Vitruvius, but I think they might be giving to much credit to planning and forethought, when a simple series of unplanned, escalating events are simply spinning out of control of either side.
Personally I don’t believe Russia really wants another war in the Caucasus, but they have no intention of letting Georgia push around their peacekeepers, either. Exactly how and why Georgia escalated things so far is certainly a bit of a mystery, but the area has been very tense for years. I’m not so sure either side really planned the timing of this particular outbreak.
And I certainly don’t think the status of South Ossetia is anything NATO should concern itself with. If Georgia really wants to go to war with Russia over it they should understand they’ll be doing it on their own.
Is it just me, or do I hear Otto Von Bismark laughing his Imperial German ass off?
This is -business as usual- for Europe. Its been 60 odd years since we had a really good war in Europe, with actual warlike behavior and Europeans lining up along the ancient cultural divisions. Georgians know who they are, and they know they aren’t Russian. Welcome to war European style.
Methinks the multi-culti playbook just got tossed out the window up there in Russia. Be interesting to see how long it takes the rest of the nationalities to follow suit.
Yes they certainly might, Kevin, indeed they mention that elsewhere, but as I said I feel I was under fair use limitations on that extract. I would like to reiterate though that there is public web interface (with less of the detail reports) that y’all may be interested in bookmarking for reference of matters of this sort: that’s Strategic Forecasting Inc.
Why is it that so many people here are willing to air the Putinists’ grievances of the 1990s, while those who oppose them are somehow considered crypto-jihadists?
Have we forgotten that when Slobodan Milosevic supposedly waged his glorious fight against the “jihadists” in Kosovo, the Serbian democratic opposition refused to support him? How about Montenegro, which declared neutrality in front of the whole world? Were they al Qaeda backers?
History in the Balkans did not stop in 1389 only to restart 610 years later. Milosevic was a Communist functionary who latched upon Serbian nationalism in a desperate attempt to keep power. Ask the Slovenians and the Croatians. Heck, ask the Serbians who bounced him in 2000.
As for the Russian invasion of Georgia, once again, history didn’t start yesterday. Russia has been interfering with its little neighbor for years. They squeezed out Zviad Gamsakhurdia and replaced him the Communist Shevardnadze, who allowed the country to sink into a corrupt cesspool until the Georgian people had enough and sent him packing.
As for the borders, they were written by the very Soviet leaders whose descendants are whining about their supposed arbitrary state. If they were that concerned about South Ossetia, why didn’t they shift it to the Russian SFSR?
I conclude this admmittedly long comment by asking all of you, dear readers, to examine that Russian statement again: “it will set a dangerous precedent for secessionist movements across the former Soviet Union, including Chechnya and Georgia.”
Georgia was already its own country when this satement was made, but it was given equivalence to the Russian province of Chechnya. This reveals the Russian thinking – a complete denial of Georgian sovereignty.
I have nothing personal against Paul and those who genuinely believe Russia is in the right. In fact, if this were Chechnya or Dagestan, I would even be sympathetic. In this case, however, Russia’s defenders are spectacularly wrong.
Vitruvius at 10:08 PM
maybe the USA is playing a game of international chess to force a situation, or to divert attention, or for domestic politics?????:-)))))
Mike In Ontario: this war is summarily over.
I am divided about this event. As I am from Russia and love that place (not the system) I emphasize with the innocent people of all nationalities in the affected region. But I also am a hardcore Western conservative who wants Russia to be rid of all remnants of communist ideology and corruption, so I am supportive of NATO actions… for as long as they make long term sense.
The only way this whole thing might happen was if Georgia on its own decided that it would start the war and cry foul to get NATO to rescue it out of disaster that was supposed to follow. Even though the plot should have been reported to the WH, it could not be thwarted by US in time. Guess that’s what Georgian president hoped for.
If it was true that the media reported – that Georgian troops killed the wounded Russian peacekeepers and civilians, than that’s the answer to the question why there was no support from NATO. I don’t think NATO needs another Kosovo, specially now when certain not so kosher aspects of war against Serbia are coming to light.
U.S. says Russia uses ‘disproportionate’ force.
ah ah ah… I always find it funny to see those narrow minded and inward looking Americans accusing others of *disproportionate force*.
When 4 Americans died in Fallujah.. they leveled the whole town. When 2 Israelis were killed by Hezbollah.. Israel bombed 1200 civilians to death in response. No word from USA.
(Via Michael Totten) Anne Applebaum, World Inaction: Russia invades Georgia while the West watches. How did it come to this?
The Georgian leadership, by contrast, had come to believe that the constant pressure of Russian aggression, coupled with the West’s failure to accept Georgia into NATO, compelled them to demonstrate “self-reliance.” Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has been buying weapons in preparation for this moment. Those who know him say he believed a military conflict was inevitable but could be won if conducted cleverly. As of Friday night, with Russian soldiers fighting in South Ossetia—only a few dozen miles from Tblisi, the Georgian capital—it seems as if he might have miscalculated, badly. Russia has not sent 150 tanks across that border in order to lose…
D.J. McGuire – I don’t think your presentation of the situation is particularly accurate.
Georgia has not established sovereignty over South Ossetia since the Soviet Union broke up – as soon as Georgia declared independence South Ossetia likewise declared independence from Georgia. The territory has been disputed ever since.
That is not to say the Russia is right or all their actions are legitimate, but you simply have to acknowledge the facts on the ground – they ARE a relevant party in the border dispute.
This isn’t simply an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign country – the situation is far more complicated than that. And Russia hasn’t remotely been making any noises of re-incorporating all of Georgia into Russia, nor have they been assembling anywhere near enough military hardware to launch an invasion on that scale. It is a fight over a particular piece of disputed territory, and we shouldn’t present it as anything more than that.
You might also ask which way the refugees are heading. Not entirely surprisingly, South Ossetian refugees are fleeing to their relatives in North Ossetia – that is, across the border into Russia, not to their supposed fellow citizens in neighbouring Georgian villages.
There is more to it than that, Kevin.
The DEBKAfile link that Charles MacDonald posted @ 7:42 has both issues nailed; first the surface issue and then the real issue.
DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.
The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.
Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.
D.J.McGuire: I’m not saying that Russia is right … I’m just saying that we contrinbuted to the current situation. My interest is in the precedent “we” set during the the collapse of the Soviets. It is we who set in motion the reflexive recognizing of just about any former Soviet entity that claimed it was a country. So, now Russia can claim that Ossetia just wants what Kosovo got. For all I know, there is no Ossetian independence movement apart from Russian intelligence agencies making it seem so. We helped balkanize the Balkans and now Russia is using our own poison against Georgia.
I followed the post Soviet era very closely, and was shocked at how hostile the West was toward Russia after the Soviet collapse. Russia and former states needed cash, know-how, investment, and support … they got virtually none. And, when the banking system was finally set up to assist, half the funds went into European bureaucracy and edifices. We had a golden opportunity, and blew it. Europeans were more concerned about Russia posing an economic threat, than in Russian democracy … they are after all, Europeans. Now they’re going to reap what they sowed … Russia has the resources to be economically powerful … but she is no friend.
This, in my ever so humble opinion is not a black and white situation.
Gori, the birthplace of Josef Stalin, is south of South Ossetia. Gori is strategically located within Georgia such that the capture of the highway, parallel rail line and international pipeline that connect Georgia’s eastern interior with its western ports would effectively split Georgia in half and stall its economy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080809/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia;_ylt=Aj2k8LNKeITOP7JsX41y1_nlWMcF
Georgia, meanwhile, accused Russia of bombing its air bases and the town of Gori, just outside South Ossetia.
An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly after the Russian airstrikes Saturday saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.
The Russian warplanes appeared to have been targeting a military base in Gori’s outskirts that also was bombed.
The Interior Ministry said Russian warplanes also bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital of Tbilisi and struck near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline. The ministry said two other military bases were hit, and that Russian warplanes also bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.
Perhaps Russia will pull back. However, this is already bigger than just South Ossetia.
Paul,
I share your sentiments on the Western reaction to Russia in the 1990s. I didn’t understand it myself. We could have done a lot worse than Yeltsin, but no one seemed to know that.
Also, as I said before, if this were Chechnya and not Georgia, I myself would lean to Moscow’s side.
But this isn’t Chechnya.
Many interesting comments here.
South Ossetia has a total population of 70,000 people. Georgia’s whole population is over 4.6 million. So I don’t think Russia is going to try to take over Georgia (although having 150 tanks sitting across the border doesn’t sound to good). I do know that earlier this year Georgia was complaining loudly about Russian ships entering Georgan territorial waters and Russian Fighters entering Georgan air space – so I think something has been brewing for a while and possibly escalating over the last year or so.
I read in an Australian paper, that Rudd (the Aussie PM) was sitting 2 rows behind Bush at the opening ceremonies for the Olympics and apparently Bush got up and got Putin’s attention and angrily did some finger pointing and loud communicating to Putin and made sure Putin got this point.
On civilian casualties: European news networks seem to be pointing at Georgia in fact, being the the initial culprit and that the towns hit by the Russian airforce were locations where Georgian troops were massing. The trouble is that both sides will inflate civilian deaths to try and gain sympathy.
DEBKAfile now reporting over 100,00 Russian troops in South Ossetia (pop. 70,000). Georgia has an army of less than 20,000.
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5498
Well, first, let’s leave morality out of this, OK?
Let’s not discuss this in terms of right and wrong, let’s drop the pretense that we are good people, with good values, who wish to see the right thing done, and admit we are bad people, with bad values, who will use this event for our own selfish aims, period, OK?
“Right” and “wrong” are deprecated concepts in the North American vernacular in 2008. People who gleefully cheer or turn a blind eye when their side, whether it be Adscam or Abu Ghraib, does evil cannot reasonably expect their protestations or defense of what is happening in South Ossetia to resonate. Only a “legacy moralist” can make that call; those people are nearly extinct and unlikely to share their analysis for free with their more beastly brethren. Swine are somewhat covetous of pearls in comparison.