QOTD

Perhaps I should offer up my services to the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner as an atheist and a Christian, all in the cause of interfaith amity, or maybe more precisely, faith / non-faith amity.

Belaboring the baldly obvious with a club: "It wasn't about intellect"- Rev. Ann Holmes Redding.

No one can shoot of a one liner like Steyn!

Only slightly off topic: Google News search "Salman Rushdie".

Rev. Redding and her bishop should re-read I Corinthians 10, particularly verse 21:

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."

A few Jewish Muslims could solve the problems of the ME. Think of the possibilities here, instead of talking about demons and such.

Hahaha! That was funny, Dawg! Jewish Muslims! THAT was the perfect impression of a simpleton's logic!

" Hahaha! That was funny, Dawg! Jewish Muslims! THAT was the perfect impression of a simpleton's logic! "

But a Christian Muslim makes sense to you? What is in your cornflakes, Eeyore?

While genuine Christians can still be found within the influences of the Church of England/Anglican Church/Episcopalian Church, I think it is no stretch to say that most of this organization can very easily be classified as well outside the boundaries of genuine Christianity.

In view of this, Steyn's comments may be interpreted more like: 'it should have been obvious that the first imam that would clearly be a radically unorthodox Muslim would be someone who was always more comfortable with radically unorthodox beliefs of other faiths".

Nothing in my cornflakes, TC. I didn't suggest any acceptance of the concept of Christian Muslims...I find that equally hilarious.

If a Jew believes both the Old Testament and the Quran, then presumably he would believe the New Testament (wouldn't he?), since I understand that muslims accept Jesus Christ as a prophet.

Therefore, would the hypothetical person BE a Jew? Once you accept Christ, you are a Christian, n'est pas? Similarly, once the person accepts the teachings of Mohammed, presumably you have moved beyond Christ being God since the muslims view him only as a prophet.

The New Testament ends with a warning that nothing should be added or taken away from the Bible, so how can someone add the Quran to the mix? Therefore I find the whole concept of Jewish-Muslims and Christian-Muslims silly.

To be a "true" Christian, you need to believe in Christ as God...anything else could really only be considered Christian-esque. This, to me, is just evidence of supreme confusion on the "believers" part.

If you don't believe the whole of the Bible as the inerrant word of God (written by prophets under the "direction" or "influence" of the Holy Spirit), then what roadmap do you use to define which part is or isn't the word of God?

....she's also been a Muslim — drawn to the faith after an introduction to Islamic prayers left her profoundly moved.

Typical liberal birdbrain, it's all about feelings. No logic, no reasoning capability, no boundaries, no intellectual decorum, it's raw feelings.

Like the photographer that wept in the men's room after his epiphany at the support the troops event, then changed his, sniffle, sniffle, narrative.

Only in the Age of Narcissism could such shallow personality disordered mental lightweights be given any credence. Sniffle. sniffle.

"Jewish Muslims"?

It's not even lunch time, Dawg, try not to give it your best shot so early in the day.

"It wasn't about intellect," she said. It seems Dawg seconds the statement.

The only way Islam can win converts is at the end of the sword, or promising holy sanctification and untold blessings for the mass-murdering and rapine inclined (Fastest growing religion in prisons).

Islam has invented nothing. Contributed nothing except evil to history. And it appeals to the lowest dregs of borderline humanity. So of course it's not about "intellect."

Furthermore, this self-proclaimed idiot, so-called Muslim/Episcopalian priest obviously has rejected Christ. Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man may come to the Father except through me."

Which is also a stumbler for observant Muslims. They believe a prophet cannot lie. As they believe Jesus to be a prophet of Islam, this particular verse causes great problems.

The Anglican and United Church are neither Christian, nor Godly (or intellectual for that matter). They are social feel good clubs. And as such they will die. And deservedly so.

Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same God.

I don't know to many Christians or Jews that worship the eye-gouging, gay-hanging, woman-stoning, schoolgirl-beheading god, Belisarius.

Yes, but of these three religions, two are triumphalist and exclusionary.  Assuming that you can be an adherent to any two of these three faiths simultaneously tells me that you don't know enough about any of them.

Totally off topic Kate, my apologies. Readers tips doesn't appear to be working.

"It is not clear how many of the veterans are still alive."

http://tinyurl.com/25s528

40 odd years later probably not many.

Well, you got 2/3rds of your statement right, Belisarius.

A little search through history will show you that the Muslims worship a singular version from the old Arab pantheon, which included a father, a wife and two daughters. Somewhat prior to that, their god was known (ironically) as Sin.

The pantheon problem is why they declare Allah to be the greatest. Mo, the old trickster, linked this newly formed Arab diety to the Judeo/Christian God for legitimacy and to win converts to the young, struggling cult.

They also worship a little black stone that predates Islam.

I also meant to add that Sin was a moon god, prevalent in the ubiquitous symbols Islam uses.

Nonsense, irwin daisy. You're confusing earlier pagan worship in Arabia with Islam. There are obviously serious difference between the three religions and particularly in the way they are practiced, but at the heart of each is the same God. Any religious scholar will tell you this.

Now, if you'd said that Islam plagiarized Judaism and Christianity I'd say you're closer to the mark.

The Byzantines were intially unconcerned with Islam in the 7th century because they considered it to be simply another heretical Christian sect.

Worshiping two gods sounds rather like politics to me. Something along the lines of election promises: pandering to various crowds.

Gods and religions were invented by bureaucrats for the purpose of crowd control.

This is just too funny.

I've been told that I can be an "atheist Jew" but a "Christian Muslim"? Wouldn't she have to kill herself for being an infidel? Or would she become an apostate on Sunday? And would she be allowed in Mecca?

Just when you think you've heard of everything ...

JET --

Can I put that on a t-shirt?

So I suupose your idea of a better means of crowd control is.......

Left wing totalitarianism?

No religion involved, so that makes it just fine, right?

You need Christ in your life, you sad sap.

Belisarius, I would say that OSTENSIBLY, muslims worship the same God. Remember the Israelites in the desert worshipped God, but made a graven image of God in the form of a golden bull...their worship morphed from a worship of God (the unseen) to "God" (the idol)(which, by the way, is one of the difficulties I have in Catholicism...make no graven images and all that jazz). Muslims, in my opinion, are worshipping an "idolized" version of the Jewish and Christian God. If I read you correctly, I think you are both right and wrong at the same time.

It is difficult, at times, to rationalize between the two seemingly disparate manifestations of God's nature in the Old and New Testament. To try to rationalize how the "God's" nature as manifested in the Quran with the Old and New Testament would be exceedingly difficult.

Regarding the Jewish-Christian, Jewish-Muslim or Christian-Muslim hybrid faiths that have developed, this is just so much foolishness. You cannot simultaneously believe (without violating basic logic) that Jesus is God and is not God.

You can create whatever fairy tale you want containing whatever elements of belief you want...but it doesn't make it so. These hybrid-believers have created a fairy tale based on a religion...as have many Christian-esque "sects".

Belisarius,

I did qualify my remarks with "a little search through history." BTW, which 'religious scholars' do you refer to?

"The Byzantines were intially unconcerned with Islam in the 7th century because they considered it to be simply another heretical Christian sect."

How quickly they learned that it wasn't a heretical or otherwise Christian sect, nor the Christian God at the foundation of it.

As far as the plagiarization of the Torah and NT and the consequent reworking of their moon god Sin is concerned, I did refer to that obvious conclusion in the same post.

I seriously recommend you do a little reading. You might start with the first words of the Quran, "Allah is the greatest." And then proceed to the moon symbols and the Kabah.

-----------------------------

Of course this wierd chimera beast, I mean priest, would likely be "profoundly moved" by this expression of Islam:

"Christians living in Gaza City on Monday appealed to the international community to protect them against increased attacks by Muslim extremists. Many Christians said they were prepared to leave the Gaza Strip as soon as the border crossings are reopened.

The appeal came following a series of attacks on a Christian school and church in Gaza City over the past few days.

Father Manuel Musalam, leader of the small Latin community in the Gaza Strip, said masked gunmen torched and looted the Rosary Sisters School and the Latin Church.

“The masked gunmen used rocket-propelled grenades to storm the main entrances of the school and church,” he said. “Then they destroyed almost everything inside, including the Cross, the Holy Book, computers and other equipment.”

Musalam expressed outrage over the burning of copies of the Bible, noting that the gunmen destroyed all the Crosses inside the church and school. “Those who did these awful things have no respect for Christian-Muslim relations,” he said."

The Episcopalian Beast would also be equally moved by the little Christian schoolgirls getting their heads chopped off in Thailand; the recent rape of a 16 year old Christian boy in Pakistan for not converting; the recent over-the-top sadistic killings of the German Christian missionaries in Turkey, etc, etc, etc.

I wouldn't confuse the practice of a religion with its core beliefs. Christians who burned heretics at the stake or slaughtered Jews in mass pogroms were as guilty of this as modern Islamic Jihadists who behead journalists or murder Hindus and Buddhists for their beliefs.

There is no question that Islam took certain pagan symbols and adopted them into the new religion. Christianity did the same thing, replacing pagan celebrations on the winter solstice, spring equinox etc. with Christmas, Easter and so on. It made conversions easier.

Which religious scholars consider that Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews? 99% of them, including the Pope.

Redding:
"To walk into Al-Islam and be reminded that there are more people of color in the world than white people, that in itself is a relief." Stinking whitey.
This story reminds me of an episode of "Yes, Prime Minister" in which the PM is told that the Church of England tries to maintain a "balance" when appointing a new bishop. What sort of balance?
Between those who believe in God and those who don't. But even in the satire, balance wasn't attained in the same individual.

meeshlr - you've made an amusing point. As a Christian Muslim if called upon to be a suicide bomber(the Koran doesn't object, the New Testament sure does), you get your 72 virgins in hell. As you should.

Talk about being mentality unequipped to deal with a moral and logical paradox. This stupid broad deserves a place in no one's clergy. I'm sure there are lefties clapping their little paws, like Dawg, at her coy kum-ba-yahness.

You can't get this stupid without support from the vacuous left and MSM.

Belsarius,

No doubt horrible attrocities were commited in the name of the Christian God. However, this is not foundational to Christianity - the opposite is commanded in the NT and in Christ's life example.

Quite the opposite in what is commanded in the Quran and in Mohammad's life example. Violence, supremacism, imperialism, bigotry, pedastry, racism, mass-murder, slavery, mysogeny, usery, theft, etc, are foundational to Islam, as with most pagan gods.

What the Pope politically says and what he believes are two different things (furthermore, I don't believe for a second that the current Pope thinks this at all). No where in the institutional Catholic or (most) Protestant dogma and teaching does it say that the Muslim god is the same. In fact the opposite, again - Muslims are pagans, worshiping a pagan god.

Islam did not adopt the moon symbols, they were consistently there from the foundation, a reflection of their one god. Once again, look it up.

Actually, the crescent did not become a symbol of Islam until the time of the Ottoman empire. It was adopted from the flag of the city of Constantinople after the Ottomans captured the great Christian city in 1453. Prior to that Muslims used plain green or black flags.

Irwin Daisy, you are 100% wrong about the Muslims worshipping a pagan god. There is only one God. Muslims worship the same one as Christians and Jews. The most casual research will reveal this. That's not to say it is the same religion - it most certainly is not - but Islam shares many of the same prophets and traditions as the other two great monotheistic religions.

Islam doesn't consider Christianity - with the Trinity - to be monotheistic. The most casual research will reveal this.

Irwin, I always enjoy your thoughts on these matters.

You guys are a hoot! Here's something else to chew on:

http://www.skokielibrary.info/s_read/rd_booklists/rd_lists/Jewishmysteries.asp

Do a "find" on "Jacob Asch."

You can't be Christian and Muslim as this new iman states.

She's confused, big-time.

Or, maybe she's one of those who just likes to start her own religion?

fool

belasarius, incorrect, allah pagan moon god.

Not much to chew on: it's a link to fiction, and the "Jewish" in the citation refers to the religion at birth.

May as well close the circle properly, then:

http://www.ariel.org/

Belasarius,

Mo and followers usurped the Jewish prophets to legitimize their cult. Think about it, does it make sense that Islam claims the hated Jews having produced the same Jewish prophets are also in an Islamic line leading towards the non-Jew, Mo?

Think about this very carefully. The only non-Jew in the so-called Islamic line of prophets is Mohammad.

That's because there is no Islamic line of prophets and there certainly aren't any arabs in the Jewish line.

Obviously Mohammad is an imposter, therefore his god is an imposter.

To further legitimize their cult, they changed the Torah to suit their needs. Ie: Abraham laid Ishamael on the alter, not Isaac.

In lieu of this, it is therefore impossible for this illigitimate prophet and his illigitimate god to be one and the same as the Judeo/Christian God.

It is a false religion ingeniously conceived by Mohammad for his own carnal pleasure and supremacy. Narcissim at its finest.

What's more preposterous is:

"To you We have revealed the Qur'an containing the truth, confirming the earlier revelations [Torah, Psalms, and Gospels], and preserving them from change and corruption. So judge between them by what has been revealed by Allah." - Quran

Allah wasn't the least bit ambiguous when he said that the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels were his divinely inspired scriptures. But that’s not possible since the Torah and Qur'an contradict each other on most every page. Yet the consistent message of salvation proclaimed in the Gospels is the antithesis of Islam. To say that they were all inspired by the same God is irrational, a logical impossibility.

The only conclusion can be that Mohammad, his god and his quran are frauds.

And who is this Allah? He is the moon-god, but he's also the demon god put forth in the beginning of the quran in the so-called demonic verses.

Mo's revealing spirit was an unnamed "Lord." When we're finally introduced, we learn that the Islamic god’s name is Ar-Rahman. And he is a dark and demented spirit, one who spends his days in hell. He deceives men, leads them astray, shackles them, dragging them to their doom. Ar-Rahman personally participates in hell’s torments, turning men on a spit, tearing them apart, forcing them to eat thorns, pitch, and boiling water. His paradise is a brothel. Its rivers flow with wine, and multiple virgins satiate the carnal desires of the faithful.

Is there anything in the OT, the Talmud, or the NT that even compares to any of this nonsense?

Furthermore, in the Hadiths it's told that in the beginning of his 'ministry' those who knew him best, his family and neighbors, said that he had gone mad. "He is a demon-possessed sorcerer fabricating scripture," they said, accusing him of plagiarism and of having purely selfish motives. They mocked his prophetic claims, ridiculed his Qur'an, and said that his preposterous notion of TURNING MANY PAGAN IDOLS INTO THE ONE GOD was insane

Dude, allah, ar-rahman, or moon-god (take your pick) ain't the same diety.

irwin - thanks as always for educating us about Islam. I just finished "The Truth About Mohammad" by Robert Spencer.

Mohammed was a disgusting individual. Islam is a superficial mishmash of Judeo/Christian concepts as Mohammed had exposure to both groups, they were well established in the area in his time. The Koran is really about codifying the worst primitive tribal behavior. It's a cult by any measure. That is has endured in an insular backwards place with a large birth rate doesn't make it anything more.

It will continue on by killing people, destroying open debate and other's culture where it spreads.

I propose that the left is its mirror image as history unfolds before our eyes.

@Dawg - "May as well close the circle properly, then: http://www.ariel.org/"

Not sure where you are going here. Jewish Christians, yes. Actually, all Christians as Jewish, theologically...

It's very dangerous to attack other religious beliefs based on logic. Religions are based on leaps of faith, without proof, and willing acceptance of what are often the most unlikely stories.

"Proving" that Allah is a demon through scripture is a meaningless exercise. Similiar holes and inconsistencies can be found in the sacred texts of all religions.

Leaving aside personal beliefs about the relative merits of each religion, there is no doubt that Muslims believe they worship the same God as Christians and Jews. If they are actually worshiping a demon - well, that's your belief, not theirs.

Belisarius, can you believe in ghosts and NOT believe in ghosts at the same time? THAT is the type of logic (or lack thereof) we are dealing with.

If you are Christian, then Jesus is God. If you are a muslim, then Jesus is not God (or so I presume). You can't believe both.

If I say that I believe in the Tooth Fairy and then say that the Tooth Fairy leaves chocolate eggs at Easter, the correct response would be "...but that's NOT the Tooth Fairy, that's the Easter Bunny...". I would be wrong, even though I may BELIEVE that this is the case. Even though the muslims may BELIEVE that they are worshiping the same God, they are wrong.

I can say "I believe in and worship Belisarius. She is a 4' 3" black lesbian with two heads." To which you would reply "...but I'm not". Can we both be right? By your logic, since I BELIEVE this is the case, I must be right, n'est pas?

Eeyore, my one head finds what you say to be compelling, but the other one is too busy checking out the busty Toronto chick on the Silicone thread.

It's very dangerous to attack other religious beliefs based on logic.

You really are missing the point. There is a whole big context going on here in this discussion that you seem unable to grasp.

While faith transcends logic with religion, it doesn't negate all reason. It's perfectly ok if your neighbor is practicing human sacrifice, a devout believer no less, to call the cops. Reason trumps his religious practice no matter how sincere he is.

Islam has remained century after century within a largely illiterate group. It fits with their violent tribal culture. Insular. No science. No influence from the Greeks. No outside influences. Muslim's faith in a God is understandable, but, their religion is unreasonable and harmful to themselves and others.

As a person who was born, baptised and confirmed into the Anglican Church in Canada, I found comfort and solace there while I was in my formative years . It gave me a sense of where I was from and where I was expected to go, based on the tenets of the Christian faith. Nothing I was taught was anethema to my personal beliefs and development as a mature and responsible member of society.
That has all changed over the years. I will no longer attend any religious function, whether or not it is held in an Anglican church or anywhere else.
I am sick and tired of the politics that are spewed from the pulpit and will no longer attend their communist gatherings.
I feel a genuine sadness for what has happened in the intervening years and feel helpless to try to rectify it.
This woman is the postal girl for what has gone wrong. May God help us all.

Actually penny, you are missing my point completely. I am not defending Islam or Muslims. I am simply stating that it is a monotheistic religion which worships the same God as Judaism and Christianity. I was told I was wrong, which I disputed.

My opinion is shared by the vast majority of religious scholars.

OMG!!!!!!

"Redding's bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, says he accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting."

DUH. Come again?

I'm giving the Episcopal/Anglican Church about 10 more years, if that, of viability. With, however, this ludicrous "acceptance" of an Episcopal priest as a Muslim (I was going to attempt an analogy, but parody escapes me) and with the probablility that the Anglican Church of Canada is likely to vote for the acceptance of same-sex marriage at its Synod in Winnipeg this weekend, its demise seems much more imminent.

Then there's the Anglican Chaplain at Trinity College, U. of T., who announced after she had become the Dean that she had grown "beyond Christianity." This widening of her understanding of the Christian faith seems to have been considered a plus--I guess because, in the Bishop's words, "the interfaith possibilities [are] exciting."

Please.

This "widening" of Christianity actually propels these enlightened, open, and tolerant Episcopalian/Anglican clerics OUTSIDE of the Christian faith, a fact they seem quite unaware of. Kyrie Eleison.

'Talk about having your cake and eating it too: having your faith and skewing it too. 'Doesn't work--and it sure isn't bringing more people into either church.

This woman strikes me as someone who would try to stand up and sit down both at the same time.

I can see her as a peace protester with a "make love not war" sign, using it to beat the hell out of some kid with a 'support the troops" yellow ribbon.

Same mentality. Hippies never change, except for the LSD induced brain damage accumulating over time.

Belisarius: I don't know what religious scholars you are referring to but Allah and Yahweh are not even close to being the same God. They don't share the same history, characteristics, worship or demand the same belief system. The only possible similarity between the Islam, Christianity and Judaism is that the three religions are monotheistic. Final proof would be to ask any one of the leaders of the three religions and ask them if they worship the same god and every one who is honest would say no. In the last few years the Jewish rabbis have agreed that Christians and Jews worship the same God even though Jews do not accept Jesus as being part of the Godhead, however if the Muslims believed that Christians and Jews worshipped Allah there wouldn't be any need to call people infidels.