Daughter of the Nile

OT:
Roggios WOT coverage is detailed in this post. I always like the reply parts as more people realize what they don't get elsewhere.

I think the refusal of moderate Muslims to speak out is indeed founded on fear - because the fundamentalist set is immediately retaliatory and brutal and vicious.

But, they are not being helped by the refusal of Europeans - and Canadians - to counter these threats and insist on freedom of speech.

Europe, after WWII and its rejection of 'different peoples (Jews, gypsies, gays, etc) , moved itself into the cave of multiculturalism, denying reason, empirical observation and analysis - in favour of saying, 'Oh, whatever belief and behaviour you want is OK'. Therefore, it removed its will and capability to evaluate dysfunctional beliefs and behaviour.

Canada has done the same, dividing its people into hereditary groups by linguistic, ethnic and religious origin - and refusing us the right to debate, reason and evaluate these differences; and refusing us the right to develop a common, shared identity.

I don't think that the ME Arab States were afraid of a different religion in the ME (Israel). After all, Israel itself was 'afraid' of a different religion in its midst, insisting on a Jewish majority. I think that the ME states were and are opposed to a democratic state in the ME.
That is - the situation is political, not religious.

The ME states are, as I've said thousands of times, tribal. This is hereditary authority, and means that no middle class can develop. A modern industrial society MUST have an empwered middle class. The ME tribal leaders are kept in power by oil - but the people have no power. They don't want a Palestine, which would be a democracy, and they don't want Israel- for the same reason. No democracies in the region.

The religion is the 'surface' reason, an immeidately understandable and totally emotional and irrational reason. The real reason, the deeper reason, is political AND economic. No democracy, no middle class that has the economic and political power - for the Ruling Tribes want to retain that power.

What about Islam in the West? It operates within the political empowerment established by multiculturalism - which does the same thing as in the ME. It sets up the population within hereditary tribes (defined by religion, ethnicity, language) - and - a hierarchy develops, with one set moving in as Dominant Leaders of each 'tribe'. These Leaders run their group by fear and domination. The gov't rewards them, as an isolate 'multicultural' group, by funding for them, by special privileges etc.

What to do? In the West - end multiculturalism. Immediately. Insist that all immigrants learn English, obey the rules, not ask for any special privileges - and work to develop a common identity. That's what's done in Australia.

In Europe? Same thing.
In the ME? Openly confront tribal dictatorships and insist on democracy for the people.

All easier said than done - but, it has to be said. Again and again.

A nation/culture is judged by how it treats is most vulnerable.

ET,
have you read any articles or books by Bat Ye'or? I highly recommend them. I discovered her right after 9/11 and was astounded that no one was talking about dhimmis and dhimmitude in the West. Islam cannot tolerate dhimmis becoming sovereign and independent - that is the "root cause" of why they cannot accept the existence of a state of former dhimmis.

have you ever been to Israel? it is full of mosques, and churches, and Bahai temples, and Druze, and Beduin, and secular. It is full of "different religions in its midst".

Israel/Jews do not want to return to being dhimmis in the house of Islam - of course they want their way of life to be in the majority. Is that any different from what you want?

Bat Ye'or is a visionary for exposing the anti-Jewish, anti-Christian Euro-Arab conspiracy. However, like most so-called anti-Islamist writers, she is mostly silent on the crucial issue of mass Muslim immigration to the West. Bat Ye'or and her ilk must follow their convictions to their logical conclusion; only the banning of further Muslim immigration (and possible mass deportations) can save the West in the long term, period. We'll see if the brainiacs at this Fraser Institute conference speak out against the Islamic invasion of our Western societies, or merely spout the usual milquetoast blather about supporting "moderate" Muslims against the extremists, etc. ad nauseam.

This sounds like something worth reading. I'll have to look for the author in the book store. Somehow trusting CNN to give me fair and balanced history of the ME doesn't sound logical.

I wonder if Chapters have the cajoles to carry the book?

Thank God Sephardic Jews had Israel, Arab Christians have nowhere to go.

"I think the refusal of moderate Muslims to speak out is indeed founded on fear"....maybe in the ME, ET, but not in Detroit, Toronto, NYC, London, Paris, Amsterdam where speech is free and you will be given protection if threatened.

Sorry, but, for how long will these silent sheeple get a pass? They live among us in the West, attend college, have decent incomes, are entrenched in civil societies. They have the means to express themselves. They can't structure or fund any grass roots Muslim anti-terrorist organizations? A few large newspaper ads denouncing terrorism wouldn't put their lives on the line.

penny - I'll differ from you. I think that moderate Muslims fear of fundamentalist Islamics is well-grounded in reality in Canada - and elsewhere in Europe.

Theo Van Gogh expressed himself in film and was killed by an Islamist for that.
Here in Canada, the head of one of the Muslim organizations resigned - because of death threats against him and his family.
Irshad Manji continues to speak out - with police protection.
But protection can't protect against it all - and those death threats are very real.

It isn't simply death threats - it's threats of being flung out of the religion, of being isolated from family - it's a serious emotional and psychological attack against people for speaking out.

Yes - the Muslims have to do it; no-one else can stand up and speak out against the threats. But, don't suggest it is easy. It isn't the same as 'speaking out for gay rights' or 'women's rights'. These are psychopathic fundamentalists.

ET, penny: the so called "moderate" Muslims are not a factor; they simply don't count. They could speak out but would be unheard by the radicals.
Moderate Muslims are not the "key" to stopping this assault on our society. By wandering off on that tangent, I believe we only postpone the inevitable solution. Perhaps at our peril.
Moderate Muslim attitudes range from strongly sympathetic to the "cause", to somewhat sympathetic, to not sympathetic. Think of it in this way: would people of German origin in Canada have been able to make a difference prior to WW11?
Only to wake us up, and there are enough of those speaking up. But waking us up is like trying to wake the dead.

gunney99. It's certainly true that the West has to wake up to the pathology that is Islamic fascism. I believe that a great part of the West is doing that.

Not the leftists, who have hopped on as hangers on to the Islamic fascist cult - because they are anti-American, and anti-capitalist, and anti-democratic - and pro-communist. After all, Islamic fascism is a leftist, or communal Big Gov't type of social organization.

But - the West is waking up and starting to reject Islamic fascism.

However, the Muslims themselves must reject it. They have to 'take back' their religion from the fascists and themselves, reform and modernize it. No-one else can do this; the Muslims have to do it. At the moment, their religion is in the control of fundamentalists - who have sabotaged the religion for political power. To maintain tribalism and reject democracy and a middle class.

There's a difference with Islamic and German fascism. German fascism was primarily confined to Euroope; Islamic fascism is global, and with our modern communication systems - it is easy to spread. But, with our modern communication systems, it is also easy to counter. BUT - those who counter Islamic fascism are immediately targeted as 'heretics'; as worthy of being killed, etc.

So- both the West and the Muslims must speak out and act out - against Islamic fascism.

should Israel along with "both the West and Muslims speak out and act out - against Islamic fascism"?

Isn't Israel's battle with Islamic fascism the same as our battle?

no, ex-liberal - you are doing what the Islamic fascists are doing - merging the Israeli-Palestinian fight over land with Islamic fascism. The two have completely different causes - and solutions.

We've discussed this before - and I doubt if there's much use in revisiting the debate since you and I have a different perspective on both issues.

ET: It sounds as if you are falling for some of the Arafat propaganda. The Israeli/Islamic fight is not over land. It is about the removal of Israel; period.
You didn't read my argument about ethnic German Canadians. I made no comparison of the two types of fascism, (but Hitler did copy ideas from the Islamo-fascists). They could not have said or done anything that would have made a difference in 1938/39, except to wake us up in 1935 as some undoubtedly tried.
This is a religious war. The West stands in the way of the creation of the Grand Caliphate. We are all slated for extermination; Israel may be the first stepping stone, that's all.

I do wish everyone would stop hanging their hopes on "moderate Muslims". The moderate muslim has the same goal as the radical muslim the difference is methodology and commitment. The radicals haven't done anything that isn't supported by the tennets of Islam. The "moderate" muslim is not going to speak out against the radical muslim either because they are not involved in Islam (don't care) or else they realize that to speak out against the radicals would expose the flaws in Islam. The over arching purpose of Islam is conquest and the imposed servitude of the conquered. All those who hope for "moderate muslims better get used to the conflict and make a commitment to a cause greater than themselves very soon.

Joe,

Of course you're absolutely right about the chimera of the "moderate" Muslims. They're the "good" cop in the Islamo good cop/bad cop schtik. But now that we've recognized this fact, what, praytell, do we do about it?

My proposal is putting an end to Muslim immigration and deporting radical immigrants. There's a lot of hand-wringing among so-called conservatives about Muslims and the Islamic world, but not a lot of concrete proposals about what we should do. And what would even nuking a bunch of Muslim nations do to prevent terror attacks in the West like the one that almost went off in London today? Any suggestions? Anyone?