The moral moment

Good for him! Our soldiers, as disengaged from the political power centres as you can get, often see with a clarity of soothsayers. Of course, dodging bullets can have that effect.

What I'd like to know is why so many people see some backward 7th century savage cutting someone's head off then think "hey, it's clear that this psycho's savage action is proof that Canada should be doing less fighting."

What idiot sees the most inhuman savagary and doesn't feel justified in any attempt to erraticate said savage before they can do even more killing and maiming? What's the mindset that thinks that the worse the enemy acts, the less morraly justified OUR side is?

When the head-hackers kill someone, it isn't OUR side that is responsible for it.

When the bodies are counted, why are the totals all added to OUR tab and not the taliban's?

I've said it so many times before: I wish I had an ounce of the guts our brave soldiers have. I'm so proud of them!

God bless you as you continue your mission!

The pollsters might want to try that as a preamble.

The question...What ARE we without integrity?

Oh...yea...progressive.

Syncro

The problem is that fewer members of the public know what the right thing is after 40 years of the leftists hammering at our institutions and the Libs yammering about "Canadian Values" they invented. Members of governments across the country are afraid to stand up and say no for fear of being called the usual names the lefties drag out.

Since the title of this thread is, "The Moral Momment," I'd like to talk a bit about "morality."

I use "" around morality there because I'm not talking about the dictionary definition of the word. I'm talking about the practical application of it. As with many things the practical vastly varies from the theoretical.

A perfect example of this would be Jack Layton and his stand on the Afganistan conflict. He would claim the moral high ground with his stand. In fact he'd jump up and down, flail his arms about demand everyone look at him taking his great moral stand. This is, in my opinion, what "morality" has become now.

So I'd put forth that this isn't about, "The Moral Moment," but is in fact about "The Ethical Moment."

Morality is doing the right thing, ethics is doing the right thing even when you know no one is watching you.

While in strict definitions, morals and ethics are very very similar, they are in practice quite divergent. And I feel I can comment on this with some authority as in my profession I have taken an oath to conduct all my works in an ethical manner. Not a moral manner, but an ethical one.

And that's what this is ultimately about. Canada's ethics. Is Canada a country that defends those that can't defend themselves, even if it costs us (not just $ but also personal sacrifice)? Or is Canada a country that turns a blind eye to tyranny? I know what my ethics are. And I'm pretty sure I know what PMSH's ethics are. And at the end of the day, if this is the issue that unseats this government then there's no shame in that. Going down in defeat but maintaining your ethics is noble. But if that happens I will feel shame in my fellow Canadians that they so easily abandoned the ethical path because it was difficult to travel.

Further to syncro's post at the Torch and here:

http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/default.asp?Language=E&Page=archivemartin&Sub=speechesdiscours&Doc=speech_20040317_128_e.htm

Address by Prime Minister Paul Martin to the Chamber of Commerce in Quebec City, Quebec

March 17, 2004
Quebec City, Quebec

....

"Nothing is more important than integrity. Integrity of the individual. Integrity of government, That’s why I am going to change the way Ottawa works. This is not a slogan, it's a reality. We are going to change the way Ottawa works. And we’re going to do it – come hell or high water."

Stephane Dion may want to review his notes and support for the Afghanistan mission, now that the Liberals have cynically 'retreated', when the Liberals authorized the mission in the first place.

Or perhaps the Liberals are suggesting that Canada managed to expend some 53 odd lives because they didn't know what they were getting into and merely want to create a 'wedge issue'?

How exactly do the people of Afghanistan figure into the moral calculus of political leadership here?

Given Afghanistan's recent history, since 1979, I think they already know what happens when "hell comes to town."

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion

Knecht Rupprecht Division

Hans Corps

1st Saint Nicolaas Army

Army Group “True North”

Thanks, Reid - an excellent post.

Now, compare Reid's post with those of the MSM Liberals such as Greg Weston, Jim Travers, Jeffery Simpson, Jane Tabers, Gloria Galloway, Don and Kevin Newman, Peter Mansbridge and so on. Yes, there's Dion and Layton - all of them, apologists for terrorism, rejecting the military, effectively informing us that it is wrong to engage in any military action; wrong to criticize other modes of life (our Charter forbids us to do so)- even when that mode denies people basic human rights and freedoms.

"But given the recent public opinion polling Kate has been deservedly trashing,"

You enjoyed getting that ego stroked a bit didn't you Kate?

"Sometimes you find yourself reflecting on your career choice, find yourself wondering if dead fathers do a better job of raising their kids than unemployed ones. On a bad day you might even do the brief mental math of considering leaving the CF as fast as possible. But the moment passes, swept away by good training, or more likely a sense of duty to those around you."

In other words, like many in the forces he is in the rut of dependency and is forced into doing what he is doing or face bankruptcy. It's true, many can’t afford not to do this, they are in debt with families to feed and little education to help them into another career. Many don’t even own a house, they live in military housing, so they don’t even have equity to back them up. They end up in Afghanistan over and over again, not through choice but due to financial necessity. Don’t kid yourself, if given a change most would be gone at the drop of a hat, but there is little former infantry can do on the outside of the military.

Since the title of this thread is, "The Moral Moment," I'd like to talk a bit about "morality."

Posted by: Reid at May 24, 2007 4:10 PM

A friend of mine Mary e-mailed your story to me!!!

Morality is doing the right thing; ethics is doing the right thing even when you know no one is watching you.

This exactly what I am trying to do: I live in Caledonia!!!

One proud Canadian to another: I thank you Reid!!

This made my day!!! :-)
Just words but it what they represent: doing what’s right!!

Jim Smith
Caledonia Ont,
james01@mountaincable.net

Albatross wrote:
"But given the recent public opinion polling Kate has been deservedly trashing,"

You enjoyed getting that ego stroked a bit didn't you Kate?

"Sometimes you find yourself reflecting on your career choice, find yourself wondering if dead fathers do a better job of raising their kids than unemployed ones. On a bad day you might even do the brief mental math of considering leaving the CF as fast as possible. But the moment passes, swept away by good training, or more likely a sense of duty to those around you."

In other words, like many in the forces he is in the rut of dependency and is forced into doing what he is doing or face bankruptcy. It's true, many can’t afford not to do this, they are in debt with families to feed and little education to help them into another career. Many don’t even own a house, they live in military housing, so they don’t even have equity to back them up. They end up in Afghanistan over and over again, not through choice but due to financial necessity. Don’t kid yourself, if given a change most would be gone at the drop of a hat, but there is little former infantry can do on the outside of the military.

Ummm...Albatross, many other Canadians don't live in their own home either. In fact, if one was prone to being packed up and moved around the country every few years, it wouldn't make much sense to sink your roots too deeply now would it?
As for the comment you made about education...well, I can honestly say that maybe that was the case when you were in the military, but today the standards are much higher. In fact, I doubt the recruiter would even look at your file today.
What I do know however, is that the folks we have in our military are of a much higher calibre in the ethics and morality department than is the average Canadian. The fact that so many civilians still vote Liberal...whereas few military folks do, shows that those in uniform tend to mistrust those who have been caught stealing from us, or creating ads that try to convince Canadian citizens we are somehow a threat.

Just admit it Albatross.....you think little of the military because they allowed you to join it at one time right?

Hey.....no one's perfect, and besides, charity begins at home, so you can't blame the recruiter for feeling sorry for you.

Oh...and by the way Albatross.....I bet you were the type of soldier that whined every time you had to throw your pack on right? Constantly complaining. Blaming everyone around you for your discomfort. Forgot you signed up voluntarily...etc...etc...

I've seen your type before, and like you, they don't last long.

Once again birdy39 chirps in with some drivel about the poor soldiers having no choice because they need the money. Utter crap! Nobody goes into the military with dreams of becoming rich but dear alby would never understand joining the forces because you had a sense of duty to your country or because you wanted to make a difference so that lefty wanks can continue to have the freedom to whine in this country.

To question your career path at least occasionally is no admission of defeat. To wonder what would life be like if you took this path instead of the other one is the nature of the beast. That can apply to career choices, that blind date that you ended up marrying, your lottery numbers or a million things.

Leftoids making broad generalizations is precisely why most in the military do not talk about some of their feelings lest they be misunderstood for fear, dissent or whatever. That soldier being there when it is time to step up to the plate is all that matters.

albatros39a, your capacity for missing the point is truly astounding; I mean TRULY, TRULY astounding.

Gussie

There are just no words to describe Alby's comments.
Kate...can't you or somebody do a trace on this thing and find out just who it is??? Sounds like it's in the Talibans court.

I'm always curious when folks like albatross pipe up with their conspiracy theories and opinion about Afghanistan, Iraq, 9-11, Kennedy, "How they get the caramel in the caramilk" and the list goes on and on, but.....

What do YOU actually believe in?

What would YOU do to combat terrorists?

What special qualities do Layton/Dion/Chretien/Clinton/Trudeau/Dr. Fruit Fly/Castro and all of the other pillars of leftie folklore have that makes them so appealing?

For once, I'd like to actually know what you think, and why.

God Bless Canada

I believe that the teaching, nursing, the church and the military service, are callings, not careers. My mother taught elementary school, making sure kids like me got off to a good start. My wife works in a nursing home, making sure people in their last years are as comfortable as possible.
Like those serving in Afghanistan (and other places) they both went into their chosen fields with their eyes open, knowing they may never get out what they put into it, but also knowing that someone has to do it.
Since I've never done that, I always feel a twinge of shame when I compare myself to people such as these.
We owe them huge.

tower; thanks for the kind comments for those who Serve; those of the Calling. Left wing people seem very insecure. They are continually looking for a mother state but always end up with an Uncle Joe. They are afraid of those who will venture into places unknown without mother government paving the way for them. That's why they hate those who do so much. It's uncommon to hear a leftie talk and not hear disparaging remarks against Americans or Albertans or just plain Western Rednecks.

JamesHalifax:

I second your comment and will chip in my two cents; I as well have seen his type and agree, they DO NOT LAST LONG.

Either alby is full of sh*t about being in the military (which is quite possible, he's full of sh*t most of the time), or he's like a gentleman I flew with on an AWACS during the first Gulph war.
If you recall, the US pretty much hammered the command and control of Iraq in a few days. Any Iraqi aircraft that actually made it off of the ground, flew with afterburners straight into Iran.
I was in the back of the plane making a coffee when this Canadian Master Corporal (who was for the most part, a quiet guy) came down the aisle and we began to chat. I said to him that the Iraqi Airforce was pretty much decimated or moving into Iran and that this mission seemed easier than expected.
He responded in a low voice, telling me that it had only begun and that we were going to lose an AWACS or two before this quagmire ended.
We went back and forth like this for a bit and two Americans joined in. Finally, one American chimed in and asked him why he didn't just hang himself on the back of the plane and end his doom and gloom. He frowned and walked away.
To this day I have no idea why someone with that mentality would even bother to join.

Pardon my cynicism, but has anybody else noticed how many internet lefties suddenly reveal their military background?

DS-F,and when they talk about 9/11 they all worked for demolition companies.They believe that it gives thier rubbish credibility.

Reid, So well said! It is so nice to hear it "broken" down that way. In fact, it was so well said that I am emailing your comment out. We need to stop sometimes think and say: What the H@ll is going on???

Maybe the leftards like alby are just ashamed they don't have the guts/moral fortitude that it takes to serves one's country, and so like the little/mentally challenged bullies they are,they just lash out and try to abuse those who are way better then they can ever hope to be?? Wonder how many mirrors they have in their homes?

"Justthinkin at May 24, 2007 7:19 PM"

Funny isn't it when a con disagrees with your point of view they like to throw out some sort of a word to stimulate hate, like Taliban, or terrorist. They used to use the words commie, hippy or gook.

I'll have to second tower's comments he put it like I would have. As far as alby goes its no wonder tolerance is one of the lefty's golden rules I wouldn't want to be punched in the gut for being a complete idiot either.

Alby

dipshit

Syncro

Alby just can't stand intolerant people.

JamesHalifax at May 24, 2007 7:02 PM

and Texas Canuck at May 24, 2007 7:09 PM

The point is, the people usually join the military at 18, right after high school and often straight from their parent’s home into uniform. They enter with no training in another field and very quickly end up in that dependency rut. Without a trade or something else to fall back on, people in the combat arms are stuck in that job for twenty to twenty five years whether they want to be there or not. In those twenty to twenty five years what they have to look forward to is going into and out of war zones leaving their families once every 18 months. What I'm saying is that they have no way out and often no prospects once the military has had their use of these people. When finished if they have no backup their options are few. They end up in menial jobs like working for the Commissionaires of Canada. I’m sure most people in the military knows that twenty-two year corporal who is employed as a barrack warden, doesn’t own a house, has kids but has been refused their IPS or an extension because their health no longer allows them to continue serving.
This is not meant as a denigration of the troops themselves as some people here seem to be reading into this, but a criticism of the military organisation itself and how it treats the people who put their lives on the line for that organisation. I can’t begin to count the number of people I have met who would almost do anything to be shed of that uniform and to be able to live the life of a normal human being. Suicide ended up being an all too often used method of getting out of uniform for too many desperate individuals.
If asked if they would recommend someone else’s son or daughter to enter the military, many in today’s military would answer a vigorous “no stay in school”.
My personal recommendation if your child wants to join the military is to get training in something else before they go. Learn welding, electronics auto mechanics or anything to fall back on if they choose not to stay in. Chances are if you learn a trade before you go, you will not end up in the infantry, but they will be employed in something related to their trade and they will advance a little bit quicker.

Alby

Life

Syncro

"For once, I'd like to actually know what you think, and why.

Posted by: okanagan at May 24, 2007 7:41 PM"

Feel free to ask here albatros39a@yahoo.ca I check it once every few days.

"Canadian work patterns have changed. In the past, most Canadians entered the workforce at a young age and worked with the same employer until they retired. Now, people enter the workforce when they are older, and CF members are no exception – many join later in life. We are also experiencing a shrinking population of youth aged between 17 and 29, the traditional recruiting base for the CF.

The average age of a CF recruit in 1981 was 20. In 1999 that age rose to 23. In 2004, it is 24.5. As of April 30, 2004, only 802 of 8155 Regular Force members at the Private Recruit and Private Basic level, and only 403 of 1780 Regular Force Officer Cadets, were younger than 20"(END QUOTE)

3W.dnd.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/7_04/7_04_cra60-main_e.asp

Just for Albatros' edification. I make no claims to the number trends post Conservative election and subsequent CF recruitment drive. Isn't Google war fun?

The point is, you're either woefully out of touch or deliberately obtuse for partisan purposes. In either case, you're on untenable ground.

The Canadian Soldier: He's talking..... I'm listening!
The Albatros (aptly self named) is squawking ..... I'm not even interested!

The Canadian "Sarge" here.

Years ago (OK, 1987) I was a young Militia infantry officer who was sent off to the Militia Training Centre at Aldershot, N.S., for his first Infantry Officer block of training.

(That was in the days when there were two different training streams a Reserve Force Officer could take: MITCIP, which was set up to allow for those who already had civilian careers and couldn't take long periods of time off for training; and RESO, geared more towards the student/soldier, who would use his/her summer holidays away from school to take their training).

While on my course, I picked up a copy of the Camp Newspaper, which had an article that I felt summed up why soldiers do what they do. I kept that article, reprinted it one summer years later in the Camp Dundurn newspaper (by then a senior Captain), and still have it on my hard drive. It is rather long, still relevant, but I think it is still one of the best I've ever read. Keep in mind that at the time it was written, Reservists were seldom filling slots in the Regular Force, and rarely went overseas...about all we did then was train.

The article was written in the days before mixed genders in the military was widespread. The contents have not been altered to allow for the way things are today, but the intent still works through simple gender reversal at appropriate points. I suspect that the article was a rewrite of an even older article.

...

LIFE IN THE MILITARY or WHY SOLDIERS ARE SOLDIERS

Reprinted without permission from the MTC Aldershot, N.S. newspaper, July 1987

"Being in the army is a dog's life". For centuries this wise warning has been uttered in every language of mankind ever since the first caveman hoisted his deerskin rucksack, slung his spear and set off to find a mammoth or two for the stewpot. And for just as many centuries young men have ignored the warning and joined the army. Why?

First of all, the citizen soldier usually weakens the argument by staying in the military himself. Whatever he says about life in the army, he makes it pretty obvious that he regards soldiers as a much superior breed to the pale tradesmen of the towns who go meekly home to their wives every night at five o'clock.

And secondly, the oldtimer, whether he is a 411 Vehicle Technician, 031 Infanteer, or a 831 Administration Clerk, is a totally different animal from his civilian peers - as local magistrates have always known.

His wind burned complexion, easy laughter and inner toughness set him clearly apart from the prodding wage slave of the city pavements, whose ambitions end there, might scoff at him; but to the younger generations this world traveller brings a refreshing echo of far places and high adventure. A tonic for young men otherwise faced with a dreary future in tedious commerce or industry, half a century to be spent between a grim factory and dreary suburbs.

So what happens when the youngster joins the military?

As always, the young man of today gets disillusioned. What seemed to be a lifelong parade of shining armour and waving banners in fact turns out to be an endless shuttle back and forth between demands in garrison for spit and polish to the field life with its sweat, exhaustion and grime. In the field, whether in the diesel stinking prison of an armoured vehicle, the humid mosquito populated Unit Medical Station, or a bitterly cold traffic point on a winter exercise, it is not what it was originally cracked up to be.

But this is part of the attraction of the military. It is sometimes an ordeal. Not everyone can endure it. It leaves marks on mens souls. Further, men prize these scars later, as badges of honour which distinguish them from lesser mortals and makes them comrades in a secret and unspoken brotherhood. Meeting the challenges of the army, particularly in the field, is to some extent a ritual, and it gives each man a new prestige, so much so that the millionaire industrialist may listen to the tales of a soldier who has hauled a toboggan across arctic landscapes, burned under the desert sun, and perhaps wondered just which of them is richer in life.

It is a significant fact that the ultimate challenges of today no longer seem to be the acquisition of wealth or material goods. More and more it is the triathlon, the ultimate marathon, the ascent of a different peak, the long trek across wilderness landscapes. In other words, the aspects of army life with some hype and glamour thrown in.

Why do civilians punish themselves in these ways? The psychologists talk glibly of the "death wish", a force opposite and almost equal to the survival instinct. Whether or not we accept such theories, it cannot be denied that it is always possible to get volunteers for the most arduous of endeavours.

Soldiers are proof of this, and service in the military fulfils this urge. Soldiers are often dreamers and romantics. Watch their faces as they load up on yet another bus for the next exercise or even another RV. Beyond the cynical disclaimer's, the "I've seen it all before" masks, there are the cheerful, hopeful expressions of men headed off on another adventure better than the last.

But what about their families? Just as Eve spoiled Adam, her daughters repeatedly cast their blight over the soldiers' existence. Not all military wives do this with malice of aforethought, although plenty have tried. In order to screen out these latter saboteurs from the army's realm, perhaps our chaplains should make some slight additions to our marriage vows.

"Will you, Mabel Blotz, solemnly swear in the presence of this congregation that you are not plotting secretly to reform the character of this honest soldier, Joseph Bloggins, and that you will not develop a nervous condition or other ailment in order to have him request a summer off or try to persuade him to leave Her Majesty's service in order to spend more time in the rug cleaning business with your old man?"

The fault is not always Mabel's of course. Often she marries her gallant knight under the illusion that they will spend the remainder of their days until compulsory retirement age in a rose-covered cottage in a pleasant suburb attending the occasional garden party. So to keep the accounts straight, let's ask for a further statement by the groom.

"Will you, Joseph Bloggins, solemnly swear that you haven't sold any lines to this woman, Mabel Blotz, about having a friend at NDHQ who is going to get you permanently posted to CFS Bermuda, or that you intend to stop drinking forever, and that you are going to have your tattoos removed?'

Army wives, generally speaking, are the cream of the crop. But not every pretty young thing can make the grade. It is only fair to warn all candidates that soldiers are not rational humans, they spend a lot of their days in far away places, that they are not good husbands - or even good letter writers - by Ladies Home Journal standards, and that no girl in her right mind should even dream of marrying one.

Any girl still agreeable to marriage on such a basis is clearly crazy as well, and should make an excellent army wife. Seriously, the soldier and his wife have an excellent chance for a happy marriage. Long ago the prophet Mohammed advised bridegrooms: "let there be space in your togetherness", an Islamic variation on the theme "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Boredom is considered by some experts to be a major cause of divorce in America. It is rarely a problem in army families. Like Mohammed, NDHQ believes in 'spaces' in our family lives, and provides them generously at times. "To part is to die a little", says a french proverb.

But the pain of parting is better than the pain of love grown stale. Few civilians know the holiday spirit in a home when a soldier returns from the field. Each person sees each other for a moment plainly as for the first time; with all their special flaws and charms. Many men stop appreciating their wives after they leave the alter, and never think about them again until the funeral. The soldier gets a fresh awareness of his wife's worth with every homecoming.

But is it all worth the price of life in the field? Frankly, life in the bush is never easy. There is little comfort, not much silence, hardly any privacy, no end to the movement or interruption. There is no escape at five o'clock or even the weekend. The world shrinks to a point where there doesn't seem to be any real day or night, only intervals of feeding, sleep, light and darkness during work.

Perhaps it is the hidden dividends that come at totally unexpected moments. In the middle of the night when out of what was chaos comes a well-organized team. You can look at your partner’s face and see the grin that's on yours. Or it is the excitement of the new sights and sounds of strange places, or maybe it’s just the feeling that comes from belonging to a group of special people.

It doesn't matter. We all have our own reasons. As the summer winds down, 'barn' fever becomes apparent. Only the newest of soldiers will pack their kit up without a thought that one of the good things in life is coming to a close. Older soldiers thoughts turn to unpaid bills, unswept basements, and unspanked children. But once home for a while, there are a few who do not begin to wonder what the next summer is going to be like, and if it won't have even better adventures.

That's why soldiers are soldiers, and if you don't believe it, just listen to the stories at the bar after the first parade night in the fall.

Major A.F. Robertson

A. Cooper at May 25, 2007 1:00 AM

That's a nice little link you posted there, however, I am not referring to the AVERAGE recruit. People entering the military ON AVERAGE are in fact older than the 18 year olds of the past. But, I'm talking about the guy who joins the military and ends up in the infantry, the guys at the pointy end of the stick. These are the guys who usually end getting very dead if things go wrong on the ground in Afghanistan. They tend to enter the forces without a trade, no life experience and lets face it, are not members of the Einstein brigade. They are the ones who join the reg. force, young and right out of high school or have spent a couple of years out of school working in menial jobs and see the military as an escape. These are they guys that I’m talking about who end up every 18 months that have to leave their families for some war zone overseas and are in that rut for at least twenty years without the chance of moving on to something else. Sure many people in other walks of life end up in that rut, but usually people working at Westjet aren’t dodging IEDs and mortars to support their families without an option of moving to something less stressful.

Everybody, take it from a vet, who started as Private, then RMC grad and officer, alby doesn't know what he's talking about. Imagine soldiers being paid!

I'm sure there are military experiences similar to what alby describes - in fact I think he is paraphrasing his own mil career (or his dad's, I'm not quite sure). Those represent the minority of experiences. Another lefty trying to use the exception to prove the rule.

I know a lot of military, even though I'm now retired, and ALL of them are doing just fine financially, better than average Alby, and actually like what they do and believe in it.

Like I said, Alby has no clue, seems like the chronic bitchers who brought everybody down, and we were so happy when they released.

An RMC grad, the Junior General club, you’re still wearing that magic decoder ring no doubt? The RMCs were the biggest collection of pompous asses to ever stroll in a Canadian uniform. The RMC motto, "It's all about me and to hell with the troops"? The only ones I know, both officer and other ranks, that didn’t feel anything but utter contempt for an RMC grad is the RMC grads themselves. I’ve met many ring knockers and I can honestly say, I never met one that I could tolerate for more than a few moments at a time.

"I know a lot of military, even though I'm now retired, and ALL of them are doing just fine financially"

That ladies and gentlemen is an example of how out of touch an RMC type (comically referred to as “leaders of men”) is in touch with the well being of the real people doing real work in the military. Shamrock, people are doing “just fine financially”, just like the red-green techs living their lives out sitting at the front gate of every military base.
So tell us Shamrock, RMC type, when did you serve and what exactly did you do for a living? Then tell me what you think is the current dollar figure for a 40% pension for a no spec. corporal? It’s about $20,000 a year. How much of a mortgage can he/she afford with that pension after living in PMQs his entire career and supporting a family of four. Yes Shamrock, there are lots of those guys. For an RMC grad (as you claim and I doubt) you certainly missed the whole point of this thread.
If as you claim you were indeed an RMC grad, both you and I both have resume fodder to get a decent job after we left the military. What does the guy write his resume for qualifications as a former infanteer? The point you missed is these people are stuck in the job for at least twenty years going in and out of war zones and cannot get out of the cycle. Think about it, a WW2 vet fought a maximum of 5 years when you consider the time it took to gear up for the war. The guys today actually face going to war for much longer than the longest served WW2 vet. What they need is to have the military offer up an early exit plan where they can get a trade in order to leave the military when things get too much for them, they’ve done their bit. Right now what the military offers is highly inadequate.

Albatross wrote:

"JamesHalifax at May 24, 2007 7:02 PM

and Texas Canuck at May 24, 2007 7:09 PM

The point is, the people usually join the military at 18, right after high school and often straight from their parent’s home into uniform. They enter with no training in another field and very quickly end up in that dependency rut. Without a trade or something else to fall back on, people in the combat arms are stuck in that job for twenty to twenty five years whether they want to be there or not."

Alby, you seem to assume that someone joins the military for what "THEY CAN GET OUT OF IT"...when in fact, most join because they have a sense that they can make a contibution that will last beyond themselves. The fact you don't understand this, would explain why you were unsuccessful at it. (assuming you were telling the truth about ever having served)
In fact, some of those I have served with joined well after adulthood. One fellow I know quit his job that paid in the six figures and joined up because he wanted to show his kids that "dad would fight the terrorists" after 911 scared them senseless.

Alby's ignorance continues with:

" In those twenty to twenty five years what they have to look forward to is going into and out of war zones leaving their families once every 18 months."

Actually Alby, what they look forward to after those twenty or twenty five years, is the pride in having served their country. The pride of doing something most could not, or would not do. The pride in knowing that their lives, and the sacrifices they have made over the years was worth it to someone.

The genius continues:

" What I'm saying is that they have no way out and often no prospects once the military has had their use of these people. When finished if they have no backup their options are few. They end up in menial jobs like working for the Commissionaires of Canada."

Alby, the Commissionaires perform an important function. That fact you see little use in these men after they retire isn't surprising considering how you feel about them while they still wear the uniform.

More Genious:

" I’m sure most people in the military knows that twenty-two year corporal who is employed as a barrack warden, doesn’t own a house, has kids but has been refused their IPS or an extension because their health no longer allows them to continue serving."

That is what a pension is for Alby, and how is it that you think you are in a position to judge the choices of somoeone else's life? Do you consider his life wasted because it doesn't meet up to your own high standards? And by the way, there is no such thing as a Corporal who has been a BARRACK WARDEN for his entire career. If you ever really served in the military, you would have known that.

More crap from Alby:

"This is not meant as a denigration of the troops themselves as some people here seem to be reading into this, but a criticism of the military organisation itself and how it treats the people who put their lives on the line for that organisation."

Again you misunderstand Alby.....we don't do it for the military organization. We do it for our fellow citizens. Again, the fact you don't understand this leads me to believe you are full of shit when you claim to have served, or if you have served, it explains clearly why you were such a failure at it.

More of the same...blah blah:

"I can’t begin to count the number of people I have met who would almost do anything to be shed of that uniform and to be able to live the life of a normal human being."

We are normal human beings Albatross, and the fact that you hang around a bunch of whiners and complainers isn't surprising. Birds of a feather stick together....as the old adage says. No one would be surprised to discover that those who are as incompetent/incapable as you - find you good company.

The real genius shines through:

" Suicide ended up being an all too often used method of getting out of uniform for too many desperate individuals."

Are you sure your incessant negativity didn't contribute Alby? Perhaps you could have recommend they put their release in...as opposed to telling them they were wasting their lives.

Blah Blah:

"If asked if they would recommend someone else’s son or daughter to enter the military, many in today’s military would answer a vigorous “no stay in school”."

Actually Alby, the average person in the military has a much better education than the average Canadian on the street. I know Officers and NCM's who have University degrees, Masters Degrees, Doctorates, etc. The military requires constant updating....and the education we receive is diverse and continuous. If you want to have the children of your friend receive an education.....tell them to join up. They'll get plenty of it.

The proof Alby was never in the military:

"My personal recommendation if your child wants to join the military is to get training in something else before they go. Learn welding, electronics auto mechanics or anything to fall back on if they choose not to stay in."

Umm..Alby, I don't know what military you joined, but those trades you mentioned above are taught constantly...as well as many others. You failed to mention computer science (the military will teach you that)....engineering (the military will teach you that)....public relations, writing skills, languages...etc..etc.
Hell....I received a University education (at a civilian University) WHILE I was receiving my salary. Sorry Alby....your stories of horror are the fiction of your own mis-informed mind.

Finally:

" Chances are if you learn a trade before you go, you will not end up in the infantry, but they will be employed in something related to their trade and they will advance a little bit quicker."

Actually Alby, people who join the military can decide what trade they want to be in, and many CHOOSE the infantry because they WANT to be on the front lines. They're looking for adventure, and they want the action. They have the guts to take the risks......
Alby, to stoop to condescend those who choose to join the military, but I think it is obvious to everyone reading this that you are simply at a loss to understand why those you look down upon, seemed to have succeeded where you have failed. Trying to degrade those who are better than you may ease your mind, but you simply look silly and petty.

But don't worry Alby......People in the military are used to being degraded by those we swore an oath to protect. You are free to remain ignorant. We'll watch your back anyway, because we don't do it for the accolades.

"I never met one that I could tolerate for more than a few moments at a time."

For that reason alone, I like them.
You seem to have touched a nerve Shamrock, good job.
James, great post and I agree, if alby was in the military, it left a bad taste in his mouth. Maybe because he met actual men, something he can only dream of becoming, or maybe someone gave him a good knuckle sandwich.

Like I said, Alby knows nothing, now bigotted, totally ridiculous RMC comments. What a fool. Reminds me of a bunch of whiners in the Snr NCO mess, bitching about this and that. Didn't see my Sgt Major who told chief bitcher to be at his office Monday morning, to give presentation on their suggested "improvements." Alby just a bitching moaning fool, challenging everybody's credentials. As for infantry, CSM would eat your lunch if he heard your bitching, you utter idiot.

If you want insight into military, talk to me, or Kingstonlad, or others who have positive experience in military, not Alby types, whose military career likely meant being one step or stupid quip behind recorded warning, charge or compulsory release.

JamesHalifax
Once again you missed the point completely, you said-

"Actually Alby, what they look forward to after those twenty or twenty five years, is the pride in having served their country. The pride of doing something most could not, or would not do. The pride in knowing that their lives, and the sacrifices they have made over the years was worth it to someone."

That I don't deny, but the reason's people enter the military are not what you are saying. A few do enter with duty in mind, but they are actually very few in numbers, most enter for two other reasons. First, many such as pilots are looking for a free education (here we are not talking about the infantry) and that's fine because they do have to commit to serve for a period of time. Others are simply looking for something to do and have no prospects in life other than joining the military.
For those that do put on a uniform as a calling, many find that romantic notion of fighting for their country quickly wear of when the reality of military life kicks in. They often find this out when it's too late and are now in as long as the military will allow them to serve

“The proof Alby was never in the military:”
"Umm..Alby, I don't know what military you joined, but those trades you mentioned above are taught constantly...as well as many others. You failed to mention computer science (the military will teach you that)....engineering (the military will teach you that)....public relations, writing skills, languages...etc..etc.

I thought you said you went to university. Once again, read what I said, I am talking about the infantry, is it that hard for you to get that through your head?
Now let me tell you what it was really like.
-No courses available.
-You want a computer course? You don’t need one of those, just turn it on and figure it out because we don't have the budget or that,
-Too busy to send people on course, can't spare the people this or any other month.
-Gone too often to take courses,
-Don’t start any courses this year because you're going to be posted next spring
and on and on went he excuses.
I don't know what you did for a living but there was no way we could do any of that. Training like that was restricted to people working straight day jobs.

"Hell....I received a University education (at a civilian University) WHILE I was receiving my salary. Sorry Alby....your stories of horror are the fiction of your own mis-informed mind."

It must have been nice to be employed in an area that would allow such a thing. Thanks to those above who wouldn’t stick their necks out for fear it might not look good on their PERs, we were too short of people to be able to take advantage of that kind of thing. See above.

“Alby, the Commissionaires perform an important function. That fact you see little use in these men after they retire isn't surprising considering how you feel about them while they still wear the uniform.”

Don’t put words in my mouth, of course they serve an important function, but would you want to be one of them? Many of them don’t have a choice.

"there is no such thing as a Corporal who has been a BARRACK WARDEN for his entire career."

“That is what a pension is for Alby, and how is it that you think you are in a position to judge the choices of someone else's life? Do you consider his life wasted because it doesn't meet up to your own high standards? And by the way, there is no such thing as a Corporal who has been a BARRACK WARDEN for his entire career. If you ever really served in the military, you would have known that.”

I never said there were corporals who served twenty-two years as barrack wardens, but there were corporals with twenty-two years in working as barrack wardens because they were medically unfit waiting for their extension to end. Once they reached that magic number, out they go. The point is, these guys once out of the military have little prospect in life.
You want to know what a twenty year corporals pension is for? It offers retired corporals just enough money to keep them from collecting welfare.

“Again you misunderstand Alby.....we don't do it for the military organization. We do it for our fellow citizens. Again, the fact you don't understand this leads me to believe you are full of shit when you claim to have served, or if you have served, it explains clearly why you were such a failure at it.”

Did “YOU” actually serve in the reg force? Halifax? Oh was it navy? Most people I know stay in for that paycheque and all you saw was their heels when that pension kicked in. Very, very few stuck around because they felt a duty to their country. Perhaps after the first few years many felt they had indeed done their duty for their country and after that it was just a job. I was hardly a failure at it, I retired a spec 2 Warrant Officer.

“We are normal human beings Albatross, and the fact that you hang around a bunch of whiners and complainers isn't surprising. Birds of a feather stick together....as the old adage says. No one would be surprised to discover that those who are as incompetent/incapable as you - find you good company.”

Actually I got tired of watching other ranks getting stabbed in the back by officers (particularly RMC types) who were more interested in getting themselves promoted while throwing their own men to the wolves.

“Are you sure your incessant negativity didn't contribute Alby? Perhaps you could have recommend they put their release in...as opposed to telling them they were wasting their lives.”

So you don’t deny we had a suicide problem, hence all the suicide awareness training we as supervisors had to endure. The problem with those who did commit suicide offered up little clue about their intensions.

“Actually Alby, the average person in the military has a much better education than the average Canadian on the street. I know Officers and NCM's who have University degrees, Masters Degrees, Doctorates, etc. The military requires constant updating....and the education we receive is diverse and continuous. If you want to have the children of your friend receive an education.....tell them to join up. They'll get plenty of it.”

Sure there are educated people, but there are many who are not and those are the people who often join the infantry. Remember the infantry, the guys who were the focus of this discussion?

“Actually Alby, people who join the military can decide what trade they want to be in, and many CHOOSE the infantry because they WANT to be on the front lines. They're looking for adventure, and they want the action. They have the guts to take the risks......
Alby, to stoop to condescend those who choose to join the military, but I think it is obvious to everyone reading this that you are simply at a loss to understand why those you look down upon, seemed to have succeeded where you have failed. Trying to degrade those who are better than you may ease your mind, but you simply look silly and petty.”

People enter the recruiting centre and are lied to. It’s something they find out the first day of basic training. Sure they get to pick their trade, IF OFFERED. I have friends who have worked in recruiting centres and have told me they have to push the infantry on people. Those with no post secondary education and low test scores will likely end up in the infantry.
Top lie of the recruiting centre –“join as infantry now it’ll get your foot in the door. The day you get to St. Jean just ask for a remuster to what you really want to do”. It doesn’t really work that way.

Which brings me to my main point. If someone is going to join and actually wants to be infantry, they had better have something else to do in order to back them up when reality kicks in.

"Like I said, Alby knows nothing, now bigotted, totally ridiculous RMC comments."

Oh did I insult a member of Royal Bombastic Society?

Like I said, alby is an idiot with nothing to offer on military matters. This troll is so pathetic, glad military got rid of him.

Actually it was the other way around.

Alby, I joined 18 years ago, and am still serving. I joined as an NCM and went through Cornwallis for basic training. I had a high school education and a full time job. I wanted some adventure and travel, while at the same time being afforded the opportunity to serve the country I love. Call it pride.
I'm in the Navy, but took my commission after working as a shipbourne Air-traffic controller. I was sent through University, and am now a Commissioned Officer. No ring-knocker here, but unlike you I have nothing against those men and women who do wear one. I find most of them very competent with a real concern for their people, and the fact you hold a grudge against "ring knockers" sounds like sour grapes because you don't wear one yourself.

As for those folks you refer to as having "no choice" but to be infantry because they didn't get high enough test scores......what do you offer them instead? McJobs? Working in one factory after another?

Come on Alby....do you honestly think a man or woman with few skills would be better off being a civilian in the labour force making low wages, or do you think joining the Military and LEARNING a trade or profession offers them a better chance at being satisfied with their lives.

Sorry Alby.....you are simply a negative personality type who obviously becomes angry when you see "ring knockers" or others being successful in a profession you look down upon. Admit it Alby....your feelings for the military are not out of concern for the uneducated masses that join up....you're still soured that you had to take orders from people you assumed were of a lesser intellect than yourself.

Get over it Alby........the people you were subordinate to...were in that position for a reason. They had something you didn't. You shouldn't condemn those who put more work into their career than you did. If you want to be the boss....then set the example. Work harder than they do. Stay up longer than they do. Take more risks than they do. Look after them before you consider your own welfare.

If you had done that....maybe you would be more credible with your complaints.