It wasn't a poll.
It was an IQ test.
Charles Adler: Canadians are telling his firm that they think that it's a good idea to negotiate with Afghanistan's Taliban insurgents as a way to end the violence. this poll was conducted for CTV and the Globe&Mail and there was almost two to one support....[...]
I know some people would object to the question, but let me ask the question anyways - does everyone know who the Taliban is? [...] Were any of the people participating in this poll told that the Taliban have been known to chop people's heads off?
Tim Wollstencroft, Strategic Counsel: That would be ..ah ah.. that would be provactive and would probably be viewed as a biased question.
CA: My guess is that it would be informative, you see my guess is that if Canadians knew that the Taliban engaged in this kind of thing, they would think they're not the kinds of people who you can negotiate with.
TW: ah ...that might be that these are tough guys, but in the end these people are going to have to be talked to or dealt with in a diplomatic manner.
CA: You're saying you the pollster have decided that's what ought to be done and then you ask the question, is that the point?
[...]
CA: Let me just ask you Tim, and forget the poll - what do you know about the Taliban?TW:That's not my job, my job is to get ah an accurate measure about whether people think that Canada should negotiate with the Taliban, yes or no.
CA: But what do you say to someone who says, "you know what, been down there and I know what the Taliban is all about and the question is preposterous".
TW: Ah.. well it's not preposterous ...
Listen to the whole thing.
Via Damnation - "Why, pray tell, would the Globe and Mail, which also sponsored the poll, and CTV hire a certain Mr Donolo (link via Milnet.ca) if they are seeking unbiased information?"
From 1993 to 1999, Peter served as Director of Communications in the Prime Minister's Office and chief communications strategist for Prime Minister Jean Chretien and his government. In that position, Peter established a strong record in developing successful communications strategies for the most important government initiatives and most contentious political and public policy issues of the past decade. In the process, he established a strong personal reputation in one of the most intense and high-pressured jobs of its kind.Following his tenure in the PMO, Peter served for two years as Canadian Consul General to Milan...
Why, indeed.
(Editor's note - the Corus audio version is difficult to access on some computers. If someone saves this gem to Youtube, do let me know. This "unbiased" pollster is deserving of much wider public mocke attention .)
Update - you can get a podcast at Step To The Right (where there are weekly podcasts on recent Canadian political events.)
UPdate 2 Ladies and Gentlemen - we have Youtube!
What a goofy poll. Hardly unexpected though.
I blame Canadian ignorance in part on the MSM, who legitimze "militant" groups like the Taliban first in nomenclature and secondly in coverage. In general, liberal media consider these "freedom fighters" to be legitimate political entities that merit negotiation. Israel is expected to negotiate with Hamas, PIJ, Fatah and the former PLO; Canada and the US are expected to negotiate with islamist nutbars like the Taliban.
Although people hesitate to mention the word "moral", the whole situation boils down to a question of morality. The question of moral equivalence informs the opinion that terrorists should be negotiated with. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a moral statement which implies that, for some, terrorist tactics are not immoral. Intentionally targeting civilians is morally equivalent to unintentional collateral damage. Blowing up youths in a pizza shop is a morally equivalent action to killing six dudes firing rockets at a school. Their desparation justifies their actions; if you're outmatched or desparate enough, nothing you do is immoral.
Until or unless this darkness of mind and spirit is undone, we should expect no less from pollsters or the liberal media.
An unbiased way to ask the question is: would you, should you negotiate with a group that shoots women in the back of the head in a soccer stadium?
for once i agree with adler
Thank goodness Adler is able to rip the CTV - G&M pollster to shreds and reveal it (the poll)for what it is, a biased piece of work.
Sadly CTV and the G&M are disseminators of information and still have massive opinion making ability.
You are correct Kate in highlighting the issue of the crappy poll of CTV, G&M and deserves to be mocked as MSM biased spin.
Bloggers on the internet are now quickly able to point out how MSM shapes public opinion to suit their own agenda.
Appeasing terrorism seems to be where they are willing to head CANADA!
A fairer question would be "Do you think negotiating with the taliban would produce positive results?" The pie in the sky layton idea of negotiations is warm and fuzzy,but would produce nothing but possibly dead negotiators. Why didn't jack fly down with Harper and start negotiating? Oh to dream.
Even my old Statistics 101 textbook tells me that Wollstencroft sucks at statistics. He's screwing up at the part WAY before we even start to talk about confidence intervals, etc.
What a joke.
Let's assume the editorial staff at CTV wasn't leaning "harrrrd to port", how can any self-respecting professional journalist decide to publish such a poorly done poll?
Captain Obvious says: I'll take inherent bias and agenda for $400, Alex.
The poll is invalid. There are several problems with it.
he question is biased, in the sense that the questioner is inserting a specific point-of-view, which is, as declared, that one CAN negotiate with the Taliban. That assumption is given by the Survey, without providing any proof that such an action is possible. This is a fallacy of ignorance.
The second problem is the key word. The key word isn't 'Taliban'. It's 'negotiation'. Any and every Canadian will provide an automatic response of 'yes' to a phrase with that word in it. We've been socialized for a generation to self-define ourselves as only operating - only operating - within that mode. We don't go to war; we 'negotiate'.
The fact that the 'minor word', Taliban, is an unknown to most Canadians means that the meaning of the sentence rests on that one word - 'negotiate'.
A comparable question would be:
Do you think that we should negotiate with the People who come to our Earth in Spaceships?
We don't know anything about these people; therefore, the key word is 'negotiate'.
The fact that the Taliban will torture, maim and kill you without a second's thought - most Canadians don't know and don't want to know. The fact that there is nothing to negotiate - how do you negotiate with terrorists - is ignored.
Is anyone suggesting negotiating, closer to home, with the militant natives who are taking over construction sites in Canada and declaring the land is 'theirs'? Nope.
if only Care Canada had built just one more basketball court in Talibanistan, they wouldn't be so nasty now.
Its not there fault they are mass murdering bastards, its ours.
"The fact that the Taliban will torture, maim and kill you without a second's thought - most Canadians don't know and don't want to know."
If most Canadians don't know who the Taliban are by now, then most Canadians are mental defectives. Of course, I've known this since my first day of kindergarten, but I guess it's still a shock to others...
I heard that interview and almost wrecked my gas-guzzzling suv because I was screaming at the radio.
Lebanon’s defence minister has said Islamist militants entrenched in a Palestinian refugee camp must surrender or face further military action.
ELIAS MURR TOLD al-ARABIYA TV THAT THE ARMY WOULD NOT NEGOTIATE WITH "A GROUP OF TERRORISTS AND CRIMINALS".
Who knows better how to deal with these killers than the people who are directly facing them? If a group of Islamic terrorists took over a Canadian town killing its citizens and also began firing missiles into other nearby towns killing even more men, women and children would limp wristed Canadians vote to stand back and negotiate? Not a bloody chance. So what's the difference then folks?
Attempts to negotiate with the Taliban and get them to join the democratic process have been ongoing since 2001, both by the new Afghan government and NATO. All approaches have been rejected. Despite this, efforts continue. President Karzai is particularly keen on engaging the Taliban and seeking reconciliation.
The poll question is - as ET says - based on ignorance. It presumes that such efforts are not already underway, and that the Taliban would welcome negotiation. Both assumptions are completely wrong.
The question that Strategic Counsel asked was:
"It has been suggested that Canada and the NATO forces sit down with the Taliban and try to negotiate an end to the violence in Afghanistan. Do you think that this is a very good, good, poor or very poor idea?"
A similar silly question:
"It has been suggested that Canada and the police forces sit down with the Hells Angels and try to negotiate an end to the gang violence in Canada. Do you think that this is a very good, good, poor or very poor idea?"
"would limp-wristed Canadians vote to stand back and negotiate?" Probably not, but our governments would--look at Caledonia and Hagersville. The taxpayer would also have to fork out huge sums to buy the terrorists off--with no results other than poorer taxpayers living in fear of the next hit by the terrorists. The police would protect the terrorists from us just as they are doing in Caledonia and Hagersville.
The better question to Canadians would be:
The Taliban terrorists that NATO helped drive out of Afghanistan are now in parts of Pakistan with suicide operations used against Canadian troops finding haven there. Given that Canada has provided refuge to Pakistanis escaping the dictatorship of General Musharraf, the question now is:
Should Canada be showing greater sympathy and support for the mass movement against Musharraf and help the 160 million Pakistani people try to achieve democracy rather than try to fix the problem with a Band-Aid by allowing a few to emigrate here?
I've got your audio Kate. What do you want done with it?
Pollsters and pundits seemed determined to inject their values into questions. In this poll, ET, pollster says he can't add bias to poll, but says we will eventually have to negotiate with Taliban. Huh? Excuse me sir, could you stop trying to remove my head, just for a minute, so we can talk? I'm sure we can resolve our differences. Yeah right, ask the Pakistanis how their negotiations went. What is a ceasefire to militant Islamists - a chance to rearm.
Now, today, Decima poll. Tories lead Libs 33 to 31%, interpreted as DEAD HEAT. People's second choice, voting Tory 39% Lib, voting Lib, 35% Tory. Interpreted as "Tories cannot grow." What a laugh.
First of all, we don't have runoff elections, 2nd preferences mean nothing. Ask the Reform, Alliance and PC about 2nd preferences. Result: 3 Lib majorities.
Second, public disengaged from process, summer is coming and negative tone in parliament has turned everybody off. When election campaign starts, whenever it does, then we will see.
Through that lens though, how can the Libs grow, sharing their platform with left, with, hopefully, full debate about Afghan and environment?
With their inherent bias and failure to accurately project election results, polls are something dogs p*** on.
We had a similar IQ test across the province of Manitoba on Tuesday!
Apparently the average intelligence in MB is on a severe decline.
Every debate about negotiation with the Talban and Al Qaeda should begin and end with the words 'Musa Qala'.
In Musa Qala we negotiated with the Taliban. We got a cease fire. They double crossed us. A lot of people died.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article617310.ece
What's there to negotiate about? I don't understand?
Afghan has an elected government. The Taliban want to be the government, want women to live as slaves to men, don't mind growing opium and selling it to the world illegally, and have no qualms about blowing up little kids standing too near either Afghan soldiers or NATO soldiers.
I haven't heard anything about the Taliban wanting to negotiate with NATO, they just want us out and themselves back in.
Maybe we should start negotiating with Hell's Angels and other gangs here, you know like set up areas where they can do criminal activities...
Taliban Negotiating Team, now that's a job all those out of work Romanian strippers could do.
The line forms on the left (pun intended).
I guess if you ask one loaded question, then you get the answer you want. 'Should we negotiate?' always has the politically correct response 'yes' as the preferred answer. Politician and the media will run with this, as the response is.... political. Duh. A pure push poll.
If you then ask the question 'Based on your knowledge of the Taliban, could we negotiate?' I suspect your response would be much different.
The real question is
"most Canadians are mental defectives. Of course, I've known this since my first day of kindergarten"
Who would've thunk it, Shaidle's part of the mainstream.
We all know that major media poll questions are usually biased. That's a given. Helps promote media and govmit control over the people. Keep em' scared, only we can save ya.
Perhaps the polling data itself is coming out of thin air. Has anyone, anywhere, anytime, ever seen raw polling data ?? A list of those chosen to be polled ??
If a group of Islamic terrorists took over a Canadian town killing its citizens and also began firing missiles into other nearby towns killing even more men, women and children would limp wristed Canadians vote to stand back and negotiate? Not a bloody chance. So what's the difference then folks?
Posted by: Ross at May 23, 2007 4:31 PM
You bet your a** they would Ross. This country has become so sissyfied,there is almost no hope left for it. When the terrorists begin their move on Canuckleheadland,the only province left standing free will be Alberta. Oh, and a few gan held territories in the major cities,who will shut the f**kers first and ask questions later,as it should be with terrorists. Kate had it bang-on. This was a direct indicator of how stupid the sheeple of this joint are!!
Everyone here agrees that the poll was a biased bit of knitwittery that could seriously impact Canada as a nation if Canadians elect the libs as government again. The real question is what does the Conservatives need to do to get their message through the fog of the biased MSM?
What a laugh -- some Canadians are so gullible, that is, those who support the NDP and the Liberals ;)
Justthinkin: "You bet your a** they would Ross. This country has become so sissyfied,there is almost no hope left for it. When the terrorists begin their move on Canuckleheadland,the only province left standing free will be Alberta. Oh, and a few gan held territories in the major cities,who will shut the f**kers first and ask questions later,as it should be with terrorists. Kate had it bang-on. This was a direct indicator of how stupid the sheeple of this joint are!!"
Well JT, yes and no. This would mainly come down to an urban/rural split. I live in a city, I am the only one I know with firearms. In the country where I grew up, only two hours away, everyone is armed, and grew up knowing how to use a weapon. Those pansy gangs in Toronto you mention wouldn't stand a chance. They're dangerous at 20 feet or less, and they are used to the coward sheeple of that city. Move a dozen of them into a house in the center of the twon I grew up in......one week and they'll have manners or broken bones, their choice.
Two, four, six, eight,
We want to negotiate:
www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=686
Might one say it all depends on with whom one might have to talk?
Mark]
Ottawa
Donolo can join Layton and go have a chat with the Taliban, or would he rather not have his head severed?
Well...CTV is polling again tonight online. Yesterday Fifer told us 'why' PM Harper went to A'stan...'cuz of the polls dontcha know?!And 'cuz Fifer knows everything about anything that motivates the PM, dontcha know?!
Tonight's poll indicates a different story...looks like we didn't believe Fifer's "report".Somebody tell fife that our local Tim's is hiring...
I didn't realize they uploaded it too, but I recorded it when it was aired and put it on my podcast.
http://splatto.mypodcast.com/2007/05/Adler_Discusses_Polling_on_Afghanistan_Mission_with_Strategic_Counsels_Tim_Woolstencroft-18931.html
We know Harper didn't go to Afghan for the polls. If going there improves poll numbers, Dion and his gang would have gone there already.
When one remembers that Canadians are probably the most self-centered, self-satisfied and insular people in the world, this kind of poll result is hardy surprising. Why else would we still have a third of the population supporting a party that has been proven to be corrupt, spend-thrift and downright criminal; another 17 percent or so supporting a party that pushes an economic and social agenda which has been discredited and found to be retarded for decades; and believing that an utterly biased MSM (with a few exceptions) tells the unvarnished truth? Heck, how can we expect Canadians to know the Taliban are murderous scum when most don't even have a basic grasp of our own history (thanks to the leftards and their grand leader Trudeau). Sorry kids, but the majority of Canadians are morons. They used to have smarts, gumption and a deep sense of right and wrong. Now they mainly have a deep sense of entitlement.
Recent Taliban related stories. (From JihadWatch and DhimmiWatch):
Jihadist video shows boy beheading man
Rights group: Taliban targets civilians
Jihadists cut off Afghans' noses, ears
Bombings destroy music store, barbershops in Pakistani border area
Taliban beheads US "spy," carves message into his forehead
Taliban flee battle using children as shields: NATO
Taliban to spend $1 million to open "jihad schools" in Afghanistan
Refugee school torched in eastern Afghanistan
Taliban commander vows bloody 2007 in Afghanistan
Taliban rules: A warning, a beating, then death for teachers
Afghan jihadists gun down five, including two female teachers
NATO says Taliban using civilians as shields
Afghan women's affairs chief dead
Suicide bomber kills 16 in Afghanistan
"We have the Islamic right to kill these journalists and media"
"It is a part of our noble responsibility to spoil the Western society with drugs"
Indian Hostage Beheaded in Afghanistan
Taliban condemns release of Christian convert, calls for jihad
Suicide Car Bombing Kills 4 in Kabul
Axe-attacked Canadian soldier opens his eyes
Suicide bomber targets Kandahar cops
Afghanistan: teacher beheaded
Afghani principal, district chief shot
Taliban Say Cut Throat of Afghan Christian
Taliban ban music in N. Waziristan
Taliban execute teacher in front of his pupils for educating girls
Woman poet ‘slain for her verse’
Taliban fining people for listening to music in their cars
Taliban warns male doctors: no ultrasound tests on female patients
Gunmen burn coed Afghan school
Use your vote and you'll die, Taliban tell Afghan women
Taliban 'poisoned schoolgirls'
Yup, sounds like people we can negotiate with.
It is not a case of being gullible on the part of my fellow Canucks. It is a case of completely unacceptable ignorance.
Most of us cannot name the ten provinces and their capitals without Googling it.
Most of us do not even know we have a navy.
We expect these same bastions of ignorance to know something about the Taliban?
For a poll like this it would be interesting to know who was polled and the level of knowledge of the situation in Afghanistan among this group of people. I suspect that a significant fraction of those polled have no idea whatever about what is happening in Afghanistan, or at least I hope so as the other explanation would be that 2/3 of Canadians are naive morons. Perhaps the group polled should have been asked a question whether the police should negotiate with Hells Angels in Canada to limit the extent of their criminal activities in this country.
Unfortunately most people in Canada have absolutely no experience with people whose view of negotiation might include choice of means with which they would kill you if they were feeling particularly charitable that moment. Such people can only be dealt with by force. Radical islam simply needs to be exterminated and there is no hesitation on my part in asserting that western civilization is absolutely superior to a deranged medieval death-cult.
One tactic I've used in debating people who assert that the Taliban are "people like us" is to ask them if they would like a convicted serial pedophile to move into their neighborhood at which point suddenly the tolerance for diversity vanishes.
Historically, in military situations like this, unconditional surrender is really all that's on the negotiating table.
You can't have negotiations without concessions from both sides, so how can one negotiate with the likes of the Taliban? What can our negotiators reasonably offer them?
Best suggestion I have heard all week- Send Peter Donolo to negotiate with the Taliban.
(Hey, Peter- take Jean Cruton and Shelia Copps with you.)
Since I realized the MSM's thinly disguised, biased attempts at journalism are at best laughable and at worst pathetic, it's been a lot easier to take.
Adler's bit with the pollster today provided some comic relief for the tradesmen on the project we're working. It was laugh out loud funny when the former communications expert and polling guru couldn't justify the premise of his well crafted question.
I guess this former Liberal hack thought he would be afforded the Kinsella treatment by Adler.
As far as CTV News goes, it seems to me the knives are out for PMSH. Blowback from the PPG dispute with the PMO, I assume.
I watched Duffy live last night and caught David Aiken filling in for the Duffalump. Telling stuff. Aiken opens the show with Blinky Fife's report of the PM's visit to Afstan and then breaks to a panel discussion with Libby Davies and Karen Redman.
Aiken then starts with a preamble referencing Ralph Goodales on CTV Question Period and his prediction that PMSH will likely "pop-up" in Afstan.
Now...wait for it...softball to Karen Redman..."Is this a politically/poll motivated trip?" Karen hits a ground rule triple.
Aiken pitches to Libby Davies..."Is this a smoke and mirrors trip?" Libby swings but fouls this one off.
Aiken tosses out another..."Let me switch gears (code for the high hanger I presume)" What about this secret playbook to obstruct and control Parliment?". Libby drives that one down the the third base line.
A couple more softies by Aiken and he closes the segment by informing us that Goverment House Leader Peter Van Loan was asked to appear and was unable to do so....cut to commercial.
Aiken..."Welcome back To Mike Duffy Live...Just to clarify...PVL was patiently waiting in studio in Toronto and we experienced a little trouble with the wires. Ooops... Now our next story..Dissention in the CPC and the possibility of the renewal of the Reform Party...with us tonight is Anthony Silvestro and Gerry Nichols...
Now if that wasn't one smooth piece of journalistic backstabbing (on numerous levels) I obviously lack the keen sense of the obvious that I think I posess.
Syncro
p.s. I wonder why Mike was covering the national interests in the Manitoba election?
No disrespect intended to Manitobans, but wasn't the election a foregone conclusion?
Bye Mikey.
Best suggestion I have heard all week- Send Peter Donolo to negotiate with the Taliban.
(Hey, Peter- take Jean Cruton and Shelia Copps with you.)
syncrodox: Pity hockey's our unsubtle national obsession.
Mark
Ottawa
The Taliban is what was done by the CRTC to restrict US talivision commercials during the Superbowl when shown on CTV.
Can one just imagine if these fairies like wostencroft E Jack U Layton, elizabeth dismay and the rest of these lieberal pukes were the first ones to land on our eastern shores instead of men with balls and women who liked them that way. It would have sounded something like this, yoo hoo reddish tinged fellows can we come in, whack! oh darn I really did want to date that fellow on the return trip, and that would have turned the ndp and lieberal wimps around and run back to france to be overrun a few years later.
Can one just imagine if these fairies like wostencroft E Jack U Layton, elizabeth dismay and the rest of these lieberal pukes were the first ones to land on our eastern shores instead of men with balls and women who liked them that way. It would have sounded something like this, yoo hoo reddish tinged fellows can we come in, whack! oh darn I really did want to date that fellow on the return trip, and that would have turned the ndp and lieberal wimps around and run back to france to be overrun a few years later.
Why are Canadians so uninformed ??
IMO, because the media has 'dumbed down' the news to such an extent it is pathetic.
Ever wonder who, in their right mind, would read check-out Tabloids ?? IMO the MSM is now down to that level also. And polls (rigged ?) are one of their most powerful tools.
Why did this happen ?? Dunno. Calamity sells I guess. If it bleeds it leads, instill fear and you control the population, no other line of work they are capable of. Dunno.
The dumb-down part seems to have got a lot worse the last ten years or so. Because the Internet, the quality websites and quality blogs have taken over the quality information market ?? And so the MSM had no choice but to crowd out the Tabloids and purposely 'dumb-it-down'?
How else can one explain how ordinary Canadians can now take on most of the jurnos and win hands down. Whenever the media types even try, that is. And step back from the teleprompter.
What Canada sorely needs is more Mike Duffy taking John Duffy 'to-task' moments. The look on John's face was priceless !!!
Mark
I suppose it is a pity...it wouldn't be if more hockey players thought like Gretzky and a majority of our citizens thought about where the puck was going to be.
Sadly..the status quo or worse is the inevitable result.
BTW.. Ya got to hand it to Aiken...it takes a certian strategical/ethical aptitude to throw knives and softballs at the same time.
The real dirty sports are played covertly. Todd Bertuzzi ain't got nothing on Aiken.
Syncro
TW: ah ...that might be that these are tough guys, but in the end these people are going to have to be talked to or dealt with in a diplomatic manner.
Isn't WAR the ultimate form of DIPLOMACY? These are the epitome of evil and some fools like Layton want to sit at some table and reason with them??
It is totally beyond me how we have achieved such lows in a once proud country. A would-be world leader. It is truly sickening.
CRB