Conservative Politicians Might Pause For A Moment...

Stephen Harper take note!
It's snowin' in Calgary on this Victoria Day.
Take that Kyoto stuff and shove it.

Bush better shake his party's new found love of illegal wetback labor... GOP's pals in the sweat shop industies have persuaded him to allow in, a cheap second class work force,...not only has it had drastic cultural/social disruptions in the SW but it essentially has the red state tax payer subsidizing the GOP's fat cat pals who use this illegal tax-free labor to run their sweat shop industries.

I'm glad to see middle America waking up to this GOP guest worker/illegal immigrant scam.

This crop of GOPs have operated like the sleaziest Dem regimes ever....they run finances and immigration like Klintonistas.

Where there is chaos there is opportunity.

This could be the big one that turns the tide on the concept of a world without borders that the elitist transnationals have been pushing since the creation of the UN and more recently with wealth redistribution disguised as Kyoto. The tranzis like duel Dion think multiculturalism is the answer to the world’s problems. But finally , Americans are saying no to “Jorge Boosh El Presidente of Los Estados Unidos”; which is more what the last election was about versus the pundits blaming it on Iraq.

This border backlash isn’t only about the Mexican/USA border. The EU constitution did not fly partly for that reason. France elected Sarkozy partly for that reason. Europe does not want Turkey to get a Euro passport to let the Middle East pour across its borders.

I hope Harper is taking notes for his Fall speech from the throne. We do not want hyphenated Canadians with duel citizenship and then expect us to rescue them when they return to Lebanon or wherever. We want immigrants that apply to become full fledged Canadians and have something to offer when they land and are prepared to abide by one law of the land. We do not want to be Hotel Canada.

Illegal immigrants don't WANT to become American citizens. They want to stay "Mexicans with benefits." The law seems addressed to deal with imaginary Mexicans rather than the type that really exist.

"This could be the big one that turns the tide on the concept of a world without borders that the elitist transnationals have been pushing since the creation of the UN "

Glad you brought this up Nomdenet. Allowing this borderless migration of unskilled Mex labor is an integral part of the North American Union agenda pushed by the transnational progressives in the CFR.

Tells me Bush is more concerned with what this cloistered group of monied "progressivist" elites thinks than he does the red state voter.

"I hope Harper is taking notes for his Fall speech from the throne."

Don't count on it Nom...I think we lost our boy some time ago to Ottawa disease.

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot big time over this amnesty give away. Collaborating with the likes of Ted Kennedy, how sickening. This is going to cost them dearly in '08. Just stupid.

I'll give Bush his due on the WOT, but, otherwise he is on thin ice with me.

I only have a minute..

I hate, loath, despise this bill and everything about it.

Already this morning I've been on the horn to my two senators, and I will be continuing to oppose it until a resolution is reached.

Jeff Goldbloom in Jurassic Park could have been talking about this bill when he said, "This is the worst idea I've heard in a whole long history of bad ideas."

I urge all Americans who tune into SDA as I do to get on the horn, the fax machine, the emails, and let your congressmen and senators know that you will not vote for them if they support this bill. Don't leave your outrage in your living room. Scream at the people who will do us some good.

I don't agree with you, wlmr; Harper isn't lost.

What you are ignoring is the difference between the potential and the actual. How does one actually govern within a House whose majority is left? The Liberals, NDP and Bloc are living in 'potential land'. They get away with obstructionism, with utopian rhetoric, with nonaccountability. Because their actions are not actualities, they are not held to account as the gov't.

So, they can get together and insist on and pass Kyotoism, knowing full well that to achieve those levels is impossible. Actually impossible. But their agenda isn't about the actual; it's about the potential. The potential to blame the actual failure to achieve Kyoto, on the Conservatives.

They can blame each and every death in Afghanistan on the Conservatives, because they aren't actually in charge of the military, or the mission and don't care about either. Their agenda is in the potential realm; they can blame all problems on the Conservatives. They have to point out problems; they aren't concerned with the actualities of dev't in the area.

The gun registry. The actuality that it's an expensive job-creation scheme of the Liberals and does nothing to prevent gun crimes - the Left isn't interested in actualities. They live in the realm of the potential, not in the realities of the actual world. So, they live within rhetoric, emotions, empty vapid words. About 'gun control saves lives'.

The Senate Reform? The actualities, the facts, are that the Senators are unaccountable, useless patronage-appointees. They have, since the Conservatives became the gov't, moved themselves more and more into control of the House. That's right. The actuality is that the unelected Senate is moving itself in to take control of the House. They refuse to pass Motions passed by the House. They consider their views superior to those of the elected House members. They water down, change, reject, Motions passed by the House.

They reject Motions calling for their accountability, for their election, for their limited terms. They are obstructing the elected House.

The Liberals, NDP and Bloc, who were NOT elected as the gov't, have moved themselves into a role of acting, de facto, as the government. They are not actually the gov't; they are 'potential' gov't, and yet, they are obstructing the will of the elected gov't.

And so on. You are ignoring the difference between making decisions, given actualities, and make complaints within the world where only your words exist. And the Opposition Parties and the Senate, by sheer force of numbers, not by legitimacy, are obstructing the actual governance of this country.

Please inform us how Harper can deal with this? His Senate reform, for example. The Senate has held onto the bill, a three paragraph motion, limited their terms to 8 years, for over one year. Got that? How would you advise Harper to deal with this?

By the way, with reference to this bill, it's an extremely difficult situation. I'd like to hear some suggestions from others on how to deal with the massive millions of illegals in the USA.

I'd like some comments on the role of Mexico in this whole situation. After all, this illegal economy is of enormous, vital benefit to Mexico. Mexico doesn't have to provide any services to over 12 million of its people. None. No schools, hospitals, housing. No jobs, no services. Nothing. Nothing.

But it's worse than that. They don't have to provide very much of the same to the people who DO still live in Mexico. Why not? Because money comes to these people, not from their non-existent Mexican jobs, but from their relatives who are working tax-free in the USA.

So, the US taxpayer is supporting, not merely these illegals but also the millions who are living in the impoverished Mexican money.

Mexico benefits enormously from this situation.

The story that the US economy benefits is a diversion. It doesn't; it costs the US taxpayer enormous amounts to provide services for these people. They certainly don't pay taxes; they send their 'tax money' back to Mexico, to support the Mexican people. Because Mexico is getting off without having to provide its own people with jobs and a good economy. They just leech of the US.

How does one deal with 12 million? You have the lefties all talking the utopian rhetoric which has two parts to it. The first is 'it's all about humanity, and love and kindness'. Sure - and it's all about assisting the Mexican economy from providing its own jobs and services for the lower class. Mexico doesn't have to provide for this lower class. It can focus solely on its middle class and fob off the lower class onto the US. Nice.

And the second is 'the US economy needs their labour'. Fine - and they should pay for the services they use by being legal and paying taxes. Why does the US need for their labour mean that they shouldn't pay for the services they use? Explain that.

After all, the US economy needs its middle class labour. Does that mean that the middle class shouldn't pay taxes?

Now, if the US started to use top-down authority to round up these people, the leftists would start massive, emotional, hysteric rampaging marches. They love to do this.

So - how do you deal with it? Mexico and the illegals don't want to become legal. Mexico doesn't want the illegals to lose that money to taxes, that money that they send back to their relatives in Mexico. Again, Mexico is using the US to fund and support its lower class; Mexico is focusing only on developing a middle class and fobbing off its lower class to the US to support.

So?

President Bush has ripped the Republican party to shreds with his " Amnesty Bill " for Illegal Immigrants, plus the fact he is working in bi-partisanship with Ole Pickled Chapapquickdic Ted Kennedy. But, to be fair and balanced here are the Amnesty Bills disguised as Immigration Reform Acts (IRA's) passed by Congress and signed by the sitting President since 1960.

1960 Bracero Immigration Reform Act.
1965 The Immigration and Nationality Act INA.
1978 The Immigration and Nationality Act INA Revised.
1980 The Refugee Act.
1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA).
1987 The Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act (HRIFA).
1990 Mexico/US Immigration Reform Act.
1993 Immigration Reform Package Act.
1996 IIRIRA Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act.
1999 Revised Immigration Reform Package Act.
2004 No Illegal Immigrant Left Behind Act.
2006 The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act CIRA ; Not gonna work , since all the other IRA's have failed.
2007 Z Visa's Act (still more crap, but death to the Republicans if Bush signs it)

Either way, every Single President since 1960 has passed an Immigration Reform Act to either ; allow more illegal immigrants in , or give amnesty to those already in , or they are courting the immigrant vote.

What a joke my beloved Republican Party has become.
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Living in the Shadows.

There just may be a parallel in human nature here and the Kiwi experience of a couple of decades ago. For those that know or remember New Zealand had an extremely high income tax structure that was finally lowered to what the politicians thought was an acceptable level. The political theory was that when you lowered the rate to an acceptable level and had an amnesty that a whole new group of hidden taxpayers would magically appear to pay their taxes like good citizens. Didn’t happen. After several generations of being taught to fiddle the taxman those that were hidden stayed hidden. Why? It was felt after much sole searching by the Government and no flood of new tax payers that people don’t voluntarily give their money away to anyone, if they can get away with it. It was estimated that only 20% to 30% took advantage of the amnesty and the rest elected to stay hidden and keep all their money.

"And the Opposition Parties and the Senate, by sheer force of numbers, not by legitimacy, are obstructing the actual governance of this country"

The opposition parties were voted in, by sheer force of numbers as you said, seems pretty legitimate to me. The Conservatives were awarded a minority government. That is the will of the people.

So, perhaps the actuality of what you mean is democracy is obstructing the atual governance of this country, no?

charles j - no, I meant what I said. The opposition parties were not voted in as the government; one was voted in as the opposition; two others are peripheral.

You are ignoring this vital distinction. You are focusing only on numbers, but a majority by number does not legitimate it as a government. The three opposition parties have no right to merge and function as the gov't. [By the way, a gov't based only on majority numbers is, according to Aristotle, a degenerate democracy].

The duty of the legal Opposition means the duty to critique bills and agendas put forward by the gov't. Not the right to merge with other parties and use their majority numbers to push their own bills and agendas through the House, transforming the legitimate gov't into an Opposition.

What you are ignoring is that when this happens, our gov't moves out of our control and becomes unaccountable. The Opposition is not accountable, as a gov't, to the people. Only the legitimate gov't is accountable. The Opposition can push through its agendas, knowing full well that they will harm the Canadian economy, etc - and blame all of this on the legitimate gov't! So, their agenda is not the benefit of Canada but Votes.

Arent employers required to deduct taxes and remit to the IRA?
Perhaps the U.S. should be looking at that angle instead of focusing on the individual immigrants, legal or not.
My Granddaughter just started her first job this spring, she was not allowed to begin work until she had got her S.I.N.

As for "living in the shadows," Mark Steyn wrote, "Instead of attempting to draw the undocumented out of the shadows, it might be fairer to allow the rest of us to "live in the shadows", too. My suggestion is that, on the day this bill comes into effect, all300 million US citizens and legal residents should apply for a Z visa."

And it's starting to look like this bill isn't the done deal McCain said it was.

slightly ot but why do i keep reading that illegals get free health care. we are told regularly by the left that u.s. health care destroys people who have no money. why is it that illegals do not have to pay.

How long will it take for all these legal/illegal mexicans to demand higher wages. Then listen to the cries. If those supporting this think that they will always have this cheap labor, think again. The reaction of the silent majority just might make a 3rd party candidate very popular in 2008.

We in Canada DO pay for our health care; we do it via compulsory taxation. For comparison, we are required by law to have car insurance. We pay for it directly to an insurance company. The US citizen pays for their health care as well; they do it via insurance. The insurance is either deducted from your pay, or, you can pay it directly to an insurance company.

Paying health care via insurance is cheaper than our taxation method.

Those who cannot pay, ie, who don't have insurance, can get insurance via publicly funded insurance for the elderaly or poor. And there are some public clinics for no insurance coverage. And emergency services must, by law, be provided no matter whether or not you have insurance.

If Bush signs this bill, they say it will destroy the Republican Party. Why, so you can elect a Democrat for Pres who will sign the bill. Voters are in a no win situation.

Just an observation, but ... in Palms Springs CA last Feb, --- the only ones working appeared to be of Mexican descent. The basket weavers were, ... well, weaving baskets.

If we want a roof over our head, pipes installed to bring clean water, sewers to take away the sh**, roads to drive on, vegetables for dinner, electricity to light up our life --- (and Big Al's stage), ... well, someone has to get their hands dirty.

You know the Brits used to have this problem with the Irish. These ungrateful people would come over to England and take a lot of jobs clogging up towns for months one end, then take their money back to Ireland. Then the Irish, adding infamy to ingratitude, started blowing things up and proposed to have a separate membership in the Common market so they would not have to pay taxes to England while they worked, and take their unemploy ment claims back to Ireland, where just about everybody but the
English landlord trusts, was broke, when the harvest season was over
Well they did that, you see, and now Ireland has a lot of employment at good wages, and people do not have to go to England, do not have to pay taxes to the hated Brits., do not have to go back to Ireland unemployed when the season is over, and can save their money and buy a semi-detached.
I guess the poor Americans (well, the white ones who are not dirt poor) have the same problem with these pesky Mexicans. I mean here they are flooding up to the States to work on farms, as domestics, and in fast food joints taking these really great jobs away from upright patriotic Americans who are lined up for the opportunity to work at wages even Burrito eaters would have a hard time living on. One can understand the American determination to chase away these 12 or however many millions of "wetbacks" and get honest upright flag waving Americans out in the berry fields working 12 hours a day for bus fare, or near house slaves in the homes of the well off, and lets not forget the oppotunities to wash dishes, sling hash,half freeze in car washes, take crap from drunks in car parks..oh there are just so many great opportunities for advancement with a constant supply of new openings (due to killings) in the fields of narcotic administration (dope gangs) and small business management (protection rackets). They can always decide, later, to let in just a few (say 12 million) if these labor markets get tight and a tendency is noticed for prices to rise.

It may have been Steyn who said this: what would the MSM think of illegal immigration if the thousands sneaking across the border were English speaking journalists, willing to work really, really cheap?

This immigration bill resembles in many ways the bill that was propose to build a wall along the US-Mexican border. That bill passed into law but the congress then refused the funding to build the wall. All symbolism and no substance.
The US congress may pass the immigration bill into law but there will be little, if any, attempt to enforce it. I would suggest that, if it does become law, it be taken to the senate restroom and placed beside the toilets to be used in lieu of toilet paper. That is the only way the bill will be put to any useful purpose.

IMO, the problem is the PC MSM will not distinguish between criminals and honest workers. Cannot discriminate against the thugs, ya see. The media simply brow beats us into guilt submission. Think also, Canada in Afghanistan.

Just like the PC airport security will rip a grandmother apart and wave others through.

ET sez:"What you are ignoring is the difference between the potential and the actual."

Well I can't fuel my car/home with "potential" and while we wait for Harper's "potential" Kyoto inflation takes bread off my family's table.

Harper friged up big time on the Kyoto plan and he's POed me plenty...as a tax payer, a party activist and a conservative...as far as this conservative voter is concerened HE'S LOST...until he grows a pair and offers real alternatives to status quo Liberal kleptocracy.

This nation is so deeply corrupted by official dystopian ideas that if you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem IMHO.

If harper want's to keep people like me in his coalition he'd best put more emphasis on "conservative" and less on "progressive" before he becomes a mirror image of the Mulroney disaster.

ET sez: "I'd like to hear some suggestions from others on how to deal with the massive millions of illegals in the USA."

either make them pay tax or hire freight trains to deport them.

But a good start would be spending just 1/3 the money they do on politically correct lip service to properly patrol the souther border.

mary said: "If Bush signs this bill, they say it will destroy the Republican Party. Why, so you can elect a Democrat for Pres who will sign the bill. Voters are in a no win situation. "

It sold out years ago to progressive one worlders like Rocky's CFR cartel...the neo cons are jsut cold war liberals that came to the GOP to put their last decade of DC career in. Bush ( the ultimate insider) represents the connected American aristocracy which has only a small hand in the GOP these days.

Gop is run by transnational progressives...the same type who promote global village orthodoxoes in the UN.

For my money only Senator Ron Paul represents a traditional constitutionalist republic of the pre "progresive" era. Todays real republicans have more in common with Jacksonian democratic ideals than they do with current party policy.

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funny... the more stephen harper" compromises his principles...
the softer his poll numbers seem to get.

dumbing down to fiberal nanny state standards is a mugs game.

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garhaneg - just for starters, this basically is an amnesty bill. It is not fair to those in other countries that did the right thing and have been rotting on an immigration list for years. Granting citizenship to the lawless endorses violation of laws. That's what has happened since our last amnesty, we are looking at it.

I'm sorry Mexico is poor and I'm glad that we can alleviate some of the suffering in a win-win situation with a proper guest worker program. That's not what we are getting with this Bill.
This Bill may cost taxpayers trillions in future Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security payouts. The services that these folks will use up isn't a wash.

And, there are cultural considerations, we are setting ourselves up for an inevitable carve out of areas in the southwest that will have all of the divisive problems you suffer with Quebec. Victor David Hansen's "Mexiflora" book has documented this future scenerio well.

Your comparison with the Irish is way off base.

I like the idea of everybody applying for a "Z" visa. Sounds like a hell of a good way to set up a second identity, without the problems of not having an SSN etc.

Bound to be a very popular idea among the criminal set, i'll bet.

" Fewer than 20 senators are publicly committed to supporting the immigration deal that hits the Senate floor today while nearly 40 are already opposed or have serious concerns, underscoring how difficult it will be for President Bush and his allies to craft a coalition that can pass the bill.

A Washington Times survey of Senate offices and public comments after the deal was announced Thursday found an additional 32 senators who said they cannot even take a position yet — a result of the fact that the deal was written in secret by a dozen senators and the Bush administration, wasn’t even finalized until yesterday and still hasn’t reached many Senate offices."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20070521-121929-4099r.htm

wlmr - with regard to your Harper rant - I've no idea what you are talking about. For example -What is 'Kyoto inflation'?

As for US immigration, I meant VALID suggestions on what to do.

Your 'either make them pay tax or hire freight trains to deport them' is pompous nonsense.

To make them pay tax, requires that they be either citizens or have a valid work permit. They can't be illegal aliens as they are now. So, what would you do to 'make them pay tax'? Well?

To hire freight trains to deport them - that's more pompous nonsense. You're playing smack into the hands of the 'The US is a neo-nazi rogue state' hysteria. I can just imagine the scenario; massive leftist mobs, all happpily out for their Day to Save the World from the Evil USA, storming those freight trains, 'freeing them from the Neo-Nazi Cattle Cars'...

The only good suggestion you have, wlmr, is to properly patrol the border. But even then, it's very difficult. And you are totally ignoring the 12 million here already.

I mean valid suggestions. No-one, so far, has come up with a suggestion. That's quite astonishing. Not one valid suggestion.

garhaneg comes up with the usual leftist crap, that the Mexicans are doing the jobs Americans refuse to do. Nonsense. Kindly remember to add on to their wages, the fact that they pay no tax for the services they use. Kindly remember the fact that there are NO, NO, NO, NO jobs for them in Mexico.
And your comparison with Ireland makes no sense. What's your point?

penny - I agree with you about the demographic change in the US south, which is becoming a Spanish domain.

What I find astonishing is that no-one has come up with a suggestion to the 12 million who are here. Lots of criticism, but - that's all.

I think a deeper look at the situation would be of interest.

Consider what I said about the fact that Mexico is USING the US to fob off its lower class; it sends millions of that class to work in the US. These people then support the lower class back home. The income sent back to Mexico by the illegals is in the MILLIONS per year. This means that Mexico doesn't have to provide jobs for these people. Mexico can focus on developing a strong middle class - and can ignore the lower class and underemployed.

Mexico is really quite comparable to Canada. Both of them are embedded, to their benefit, within the US economy. Both of them have ONE primary export partner - the US. Both of them rely on the US for 85% of their exports. That's an astonishing reliance. Harper, for instance, is trying to get Canada to be more internationally competitive - but, Canada likes the cocooned economic life, embedded within the security of the US consumer and doesn't want to compete on the market. No way.

The result of this embedded economy for Canada has enabled it to develop as a nation made up primarily of one class; the middle class.

Our ratio of impoverished as well as our ratio of extremely wealthy - is very low. The fact that we haven't developed an investor class (the very wealthy) means that we are dependent on foreign investors. They invest in, develop, create, buy up our industries because we don't enable our citizens to do that. So, we smooch along, smug and content, secure because the US enables us live in a secure world (we don't bother with the dirty parts of life, ie, the military); we don't bother with the stress of economic competition. Ahh, nice.

Now, Mexico is doing the same thing. It is years behind Canada. And as such, that has meant that it developed an enormous low class, and almost no middle class. It did, however, have a wealthy and corrupt upper class. Solution? Certainly not to develop your own middle class by enabling internal industrial dev't. Heck no. That would upset the upper class of Mexico. The solution has been to get rid of the lower class. Ship them in box cars (WLMR!) to the USA to work there as illegals.
Have them send their money home to support family members. Great! No need for Mexico to develop jobs for low income earners!

And, Mexico can devote itself, as it is now doing, to developing its industries, for a middle class.

Isn't it nice, for Canada and Mexico, to have the USA right next to us?

Now- how about some suggestions on what to do with the 12 million illegals in the US.

ET: "Now- how about some suggestions on what to do with the 12 million illegals in the US."

How about putting them in boats and rafts off the coast of Florida and tell them to say they are Cubans. Voila! Instant citizenship.

ET - great comments. I suggest that the 12(maybe 20, who knows?)million illegals get documents and a guest worker pass. Forget even the economics here, we need post 9/11 to know who enters our borders on a one to one basis. I need a passport in and out of Canada and Mexico now, how ridiculous is it when tens of thousands of undocumented persons are crossing our southern border at night!!

No one is denying Mexicans the excess jobs in our economy, but, you don't have to be granted citizenship as a reward.

All Mexicans need to be required to report for the legal papers to remain here. We can check millions a day through airport security, it seems we can create places to go to get a worker visa - try putting INS stations in post offices. Then, if you fail to do that, we enforce the useless laws that haven't been enforced, you are deported immediately, no release to appear at court(a joke), no hearing.

I don't think this mess is that hard to solve. One more thing, get the damn wall up on the border as was promised.

Mexico's corruption, 40% of the economy is drug trade now, their disrespect for their people, gets a free ride with our amnesty. Trust me, their reciprocation towards us is being shaken down and treated like dirt. I watched a Mexican cop in Juarez(the border city to El Paso) unscrewing Texas license plates off of cars parked on the street. Think you aren't going to pay a huge bribe to get that plate back. You better or your car stays in Mexico. Every American has a Mexico corruption story. When I lived in Alburquerque we used to make the four hour drive to Juarez twice a year.

penny - finally - some suggestions. And great, valid ones as well! Many thanks.

I think your suggestions are excellent - and thanks also for bringing up the important fact that Mexico is the key supplier of illicit drugs to the US; that its economy is heavily corrupt and run by drug gangs; that it is the major conduit for drugs from S. America; and also, the major conduit for human traffiking for sexual and labour exploitation from Central and S. America.

There simply cannot be an open border between the US and Mexico. Or Canada.

Agreed - you don't have to be granted citizenship as a reward for sneaking across the border to work as an illegal - to support your family back in Mexico, since Mexico won't provide you with jobs.

I think that a transient worker or guest worker pass is great. AND - that means that you pay taxes.
AND, the gov't must inspect the companies that hire these workers. I like the idea of INS stations in post offices. And banks - Mexico has recently made it easier for these workers to send money 'back home' by bank wire.

And build the wall.

Wow - unscrewing the license plates. The bleeding hearts (Democrats etc) don't tell us the realities of Mexico - and how it is sponging off of the US.

You know they dont have to load the illegals on busses or planes to get them out of the U.S.A. All they have to do is make unlawfull to hire or house these people and impose large rnough fines so that they all go home.

I don't think that's the answer, adrian smits. The use of this inexpensive labour is too widespread at the moment in the US, to simply outlaw it. And policing such a law would be next to impossible.

That is, I don't think it's realistic to deal with a problem this old and this massive by, in a sense, negating it. By saying that the employers can't hire them; by saying that the workers are illegal and must be deported. You can't deal with 12 million in such a manner.

I think that the reality of their function in both the US AND the Mexican economy has to be acknowledged. And, the abuse of the American taxpayer by the Mexican gov't has to be stopped. So, some form of temporary work permit that enables the US to tax these workers - to pay for their use of the American school system, all services, health etc - seems to be a more viable option.Then, a very strict border. And, making it illegal, once the temporary permits are in force, to hire, to be hired, without such a permit.

Anyone else with suggestions?

My suggestion is that what is happening in the US is utopian with regard to either finding the perfect solution or no solution; that is unrealistic. We have the same problem here in Canada where the art of parliamentary compromise, the foundation of democracy, seems to have been lost. Both sides need to give up something, otherwise we’ll stall just like US illegal immigration has stalled for decades and now it’s 12 or 20 million people.

The issue on immigration is the illegals, not the legals. But compromise is going to have to happen on the illegals because 12 million is simply too many to round up. I really don’t know if the existing 326 page Bill is the solution, I haven’t read it and don’t plan to, but it would seem that both parties need to give it some time to be explained to the voters, they deserve that.

Again Canadians need to learn from this debacle of immigration taking place in the US. We both need immigrants but unless we are prepared to treat our borders as real borders to entry that we can control then we will pay a big price later. I think the bottom line for Americans is that this time they want assurance the wall is up before they give in to another Bill that seems like perpetual amnesty.

I suggest both parties and both Houses provide more assurances on the Wall. Then work permits need to be enforced starting with the employer. I’ve worked in the US on a few occasions, had a Green Card twice, that gave me lots of work privileges but did not make me a citizen. I don’t see why work permits and a Wall and audits of employers with heavy penalties for cheating won’t do the trick.

That's exactly it, nomdenet. Three things. Work permits, a Wall and secure border, and heavy penalties for employers hiring anyone without a work permit.

There's a court judgment out right now in the US, where a court says that it is 'illegal for a landlord NOT to rent to illegals'. That is, a landlord cannot refuse to rent accomodation to an illegal! This may be the case for housing, but, the place of work has to be audited and it must be made illegal to hire anyone without a permit.

But something needs to be done about Mexico as well. Mexico is using the US abominably. Mexico is foisting its lower class off onto the US. This means that Mexico doesn't have to provide jobs for this level of their population. The young all go to the US, and work there, without taxes or costs, and send millions of dollars back to support their extended family in Mexico. Again, Mexico doesn't have to provide any employment opportunities for probably, about 50 million people. The 20 million working in the US and the 30 million back in Mexico who are dependent on that work. Not bad. It has to be stopped.

The rush to amnesty going on here is driven by the Dems and their misguided Rhino counterparts in congress. The Democrats reasoning goes like this: the illegals we grant citizenship to will be planted squarely on our plantation - a whole new victim voter bloc for us. The lefty leaning labor unions see it as a whole new group to organize into unions. Lefties need the infusion of new "victim" groups, beholding, and ready to press the gov't for more financial handouts. It keeps socalism expanding. Look at Europe.

Employers are just as bad, who's going to turn down cheap labor that enhances the bottom line?

Mexico loves the amnesty plan, they can transfer the 12 to 20 million illegals off of their expenditure sheet for good. The Revolution gets postponed. Corruption never gets challenged there.

Multiculturalism is the left's Trojan Horse. This essay is the best explanation of how ominous it is.

As much as I agree with the posters here that illegal immigration is wrong and the lawbreaking is serious, only a small minority of Mexicans are some kind of 5th column Chicano-revanchists bent on retaking New Mexico that a lot of the posters here perceive. The US needs a guest-worker program because there are real labour shortages in the US (the unemployment rate is 4.5% for crying out loud - that's NAIRU).

Also a majority of Mexicans that come and work in the US as illegals tend to go back after a few years. Many often say they'd like to go and back forth but were worried about their illegal status preventing them from doing so.

I went backpacking thru Michoacan and you could see large haciendas with sewers, sprinkler systems, well-tended gardens, and 4X4s sporting Texas license plates in the middle of the desert. The former illegals I talked to down there were themselves often very pro-American, although they only speak a few words of English (I'm fluent in Spanish).

They are a powerful force for change in Mexico, very optimistic, and all supporters of Felipe Calderon. It's a great foreign aid program all things considered in the form of hard work and remittances. American businesses are started where they wouldn't otherwise exist (berry picking, importing crazy hats, etc.)

Building a wall will help slow the flow of migrants but other means (ships run by gangsters, huge tunnels) will keep the Mexicans coming. Only when Mexico becomes a developed economy (as it is beginning to with free trade) will the illegals slow down their exodus to the US.

And yes, this Immigration bill could indeed split the Republican party again. Think Ross Perot.

They are a powerful force for change in Mexico

Doubtful, if they are given instant American citizenship. If you aren't residing in Mexico 24/7, you've got a new address away from that mess permanently, a new life to start elsewhere, what is the compelling motivation to change Mexico?

I don't think that Mexicans are consciously planning on retaking New Mexico, Texas, and California, that's not how it works. When you have a massive new enclave that doesn't need English just by the numbers, well, you don't have much motivation to learn English. It's happening now.

Mexicans have some problems, my friend, that will impact our culture. They are ahead of blacks as high school dropout rates nationwide. I'm talking first and second, third generations. A fact. Google it. Seen it with my own eyes in New Mexico. It's a huge problem. Education isn't a highly valued thing with them unlike the past immigrants of European origin and now of African origin.

"Only when Mexico"...yada, yada, yada....and we have been waiting centuries now!!!!

PS There aren't powerful forces in Mexico that will change anything at this time in history. A few conversations on your travels is meaningless.

Penny , that’s a great essay by Fjordman .. I would encourage others to read the whole thing, here’s a quote appropriate to borders:

“Nation states who create their own laws and uphold their own borders constitute ‘discrimination’ and an obstacle to this new Utopia, and will gradually have to be dismantled, starting with Western nations of course, replaced by a world where everybody has the right to move wherever they want to and where international legislation and human rights resolutions define the law, upheld by an elite of — supposedly well-meaning — transnational bureaucrats managing our lives.”

I really think the American gut instinct on illegal immigration is reacting to these “tranzis” who want to replace the nation-state with a new world order, which is essentially communism. The power base of illegal immigrants as victim targets for unions has great appeal to the left.

Fjrodman ends the essay with “We must nip the ideology of transnational Multiculturalism and unlimited mass migration in the bud by exposing it for what it is: A Communism for the 21st century.”

Again this is not to be confused with legal immigration for those with skills we need and who have the credentials and desire to assimilate and adapt to our country.

penny, the ones I spoke to are people who have mostly gone back for good. Sure it's a corrupt country and there are huge problems.

But...you can't deny that free trade and remittances are powerful forces. And that these forces are providing Mexicans with new economic opportunities and the country is opening up politically as a democracy in a way it hadn't been 10 years ago. Mexico has on every score progressed more in the past 10 years than it has in centuries.

Mexico is rather like Italy - the north is developed and more sophisticated whereas its south is a Mezzogiorno - poor, backward, infested with malaria and voting for Hugo Chavez (Lopez Obrador).

The root of Mexican problems in the States is similar to that for blacks. The parents are uneducated and don't value education, but they do have a strong work ethic. By your logic, we should deport American blacks to Africa. Unfortunately both ethnic groups perform poorer than the average because they are all overwhelming stuck in underperforming public schools. The blacks or Hispanics at Andover-Exeter/Harvard don't do that much worse economically than white or Asian counterparts.

The best solution to help poor Americans is to support school voucher programs and get rid of the onerous inner-city teachers' unions instead of debating immigration.

Ace thinks that most illegals go home to Mexico or wherever after a couple of years. Only reason any of them go back is to bring the rest of their family back here to America. Listen to the frikkin news, eh. Most the interviewed protestors at these marches and rallies admit to being there most of their lives and getting educated by the American school system so therefore they should be granted citizenship because it is their right. Their words, not mine. The culture of entitlement has surpassed any sense of playing by the rules.

I jump through bureaucratic hoops (and $$$) every year in order to work down here and Carlos the gardener wants instant citizenship for him and his family? Rediculous.

By your logic, we should deport American blacks to Africa.

That's ridiculously disingenuous. No one would infer that reading what I wrote. Next, you'll spin the racist smear tactic.

Unfortunately both ethnic groups perform poorer than the average because they are all overwhelming stuck in under performing public schools

So are poor immigrant Asians and they do just fine in those schools, my point about cultural liabilities. By the way, the majority of admissions and high achieving blacks at Harvard are first generation Jamaican and African children. My point again. Thomas Sowell, a black economist, has written extensively about this conundrum. Some cultures value education more than others. The cost of supporting those attitudes become the taxpayers as society becomes more skill/education based.

Throwing billions into upgrading US schools to accommodate underachieving immigrants is part of the tax burden I have a right to say no to or do you disagree? Mexicans have always had the right to apply for legal US citizenship, it takes time and effort to do it right, that process should define who is most likely to succeed here, not this insane illegal situation.

The safety valve of illegal Mexicans flowing into the US, getting jobs and then sending money back to the incompetent, corrupt regimes in Mexico is simply delaying the needed revolution there.

It’s similar to the argument of how long to stay in Iraq. When do the good intentions of helping them fight the tribal insurgents become a crutch and delaying the ability of Iraqis to stand on their own 2 feet? Ditto Afghanistan.

In the end, we all have to want to make what happens within our own borders work for us and they need to do the same within their borders. Borders matter.

Maybe my parents were right after all, maybe we baby boomers all got brainwashed by John Lennon;

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace

Imagine there’s no Lennon.

Et, you missed the other party, fighting Stephen Harpers struggle to turn this sad country around..the ass licking MEDIA.
Journalsism? My arse!

I only watch the tv "news" to see when the horns start growing out of the "news"casters heads! They're hillarious, kneeslapping liars!!!

Except for the fact that most Canucks feel they're being fed the gospel, news broadcasts are a hoot!