In evaluating industrial impact, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change used GDP estimates based on exchange rates rather than purchasing power: As a result, they assume by the year 2100 that not only South Africans but also North Koreans will have a higher per capita income than Americans. That’s why the climate-change computer models look scary. That’s how “solid” the science is: It’s predicated on the North Korean economy overtaking the United States.
Friday update – Cosh explains.
Hi, Kate. I ENJOY your site/posts/insightful comments.
Working freelance/variable hours has its advantages, for me — and perhaps yourself.
It’s fun to be an occasional night owl.
Re: Kyoto; we’all know it’s crap, but it seems alot of Canadians only have time to follow
headlines/soundbytes.How to convince/enlighten the general public?
Mr.Harper is trying, but as Conservatives, we are at a perceived/real historical disadvantage.
I wonder what the best approach is …
Perhaps it’s time to invite Mr.Mulroney, to be an advisor/mouthpiece.
Just a thought …
SCience from drop out Steyn? LMAO!
QL,
Hi. I’m not Steyn, and I’m not into his shit.
Fine. How would you propose to screw/advance the Conservative cause?
Note: It’s after midnite, and some of us have had a whiskey/smoke/beer. Try to be nice …
Mark Steyne makes me howl with glee – has the ‘kyota coyotes’ howling at the ‘sink hole of gloom and doom’, watches them plot the next move so they can bush whack some unsuspecting hen (chicken) trying to scratch out a living.
Coyotes are yellow cowards but sly, chickens are stupid and hysterical.
Thanks for the link, Kate.
Right. Obviously, I agree with with MS’s enviro ideas.
Just not w/other stuff I read, when I googled him (see: whiskey/smoke/beer).I’ll shut up now.
PS: J54: blame the whiskey. It works for me.
Anyway, let’s get back on topic, so as not to incur Kate’s wrath.
So, do ANY Liberals out there, think that Kyoto is crap?
Sir Winston S. Churchill, was asked after the war, if the tumult and turmoil of the recent global conflict, had ever caused him to lose any sleep.
He replied (quote/paraphrase):
“I simply laid my head on my pillow, said:’To hell with everyone’, closed my eyes, and went to sleep.”
Goodnight.
ST.
ok, I think it is quite obvious by now that global cooling/global warming/climate change/ climate injustice is a load of crap….within a year or two all of these moonbat theories will be discredited…now, can someone tell me what citoyen dion is going on about when he talks about “water management”?
I do not know about the rest of the country, but in eastern Ontario we are literally floating in excess water….streams, river, lakes, ponds, fields, wells….all above or overflowing…is this idiot going to try to sell(tax) us our own water? or is he just going to try some old fashioned librano social engineering, and try to regulate our use of water?
Kingstonlad,
I’m sure that Dion’s “Water Management” is another attack on the oil sands project since it does require a large amount of water. If you can’t stop it one way think of another!
Kingstonlad, don’t be surprised if Dion does try something like that, after all, the city of Ottawa recently tried to charge people for the water they pumped out of their own wells and into their own septic tanks! This followed the great City of Ottawa land grab whcih broadened Ottawa’s tax base by screwing all the other communities surrounding it.
Back to the topic… http://www.nrsp.com/
Mark Holland is backpeddling big time, CTV.ca David Akins blog gives parts of an interview in the halls. Holland is saying HE DID’NT MEAN THAT.
Akin also acknowledges recieving emails why nothing on this BOMBSHELL from Holland.
Steyn has got to be one of the most insightful
writers living today.
Recently read his latest- “America Alone”. If he’s correct in his assessment of the future, then a bit of global warming is going to be the least of our problems.
I read this morning that the Libranos want to make Kyoto the central issue of the coming election. Oh please, let this be true.
Oddly, in addition to failing to see the obvious merits of reducing the national speed limit, and using speeding fines to buy carbon credits, the Libranos have not also seen the obvious advantages to abandoning the highly anti-social single family home. Vastly reduced heating costs, and efficiencies in the communal kitchen that would save tonnes. Built in to these lodges could be spiritual pods, shared childcare, hallways for stacking ill members, pseudo education activity centers, one large central flat screen TV tuned to CBC. Residents would be unburdened from the odious task of deciding what to eat, and national nutritional objectives could be met. The Librano lodge leader would make sure it all ran smoothly.
shaken,
The reduced speed idea is an idea not worth contemplating. The U.S. went that route and found the only thing it did was create a slowdown of the economy(transportation of goods). I think the only option is time and technology.
Should be fun when some MSM types actually read Kyoto and come to the conclusion that Chretin was asleep at the switch when he signed us up and screwed us and the PMSH is correct – its a money sucking socialist scheme.
Missing Kyoto targets isn’t bothering our morally superior Euros, especially the French. They just tell bigger lies about how bad the Americans are.
read it http://ff.org/centers/csspp/pdf/200702_horner.pdf
the science is solid.
I think we used to refer to them as dog solids. the ones you step in.
a very good read
3w.americanthinker.com/2007/02/the_ipcc_should_leave_science.html
A few points:
1. There is NO evidence whatsoever that human activity is contributing to global warming.
2. there is some (but not conclusive) evidence that there was a warming trend up to 1998.
3. There is no evidence that this trend was beyond anything previously exoerienced.
4. There is no scientific consensus. The predictions of warming are made by computer modellers with limited knowledge of climatology, paleohydrology, astrophysics, etc. Most of the scientists who are qualified to comment are skeptics. They are also shut out of the debate.
5. Lowering speed limits would result in inconvenience and increased costs with no corresponding benefits.
6. “carbon credits” are a monstrous scam. Stop and ask where our common wealth is being sent to … and why.
7. An attempt to seriously implement the Kyoto accord (and its inevitable more draconian successors) would leave Canada cold, dark and empty.
jlc
Start reading it and after the first paragraph I realise it could be Steyn. Check the name and sure enough. Always a pleasure to read him.
enough
gotta disagree on the speed limit “issue”
just about any vehicle will get it’s best MPG at 80-100 KPH. Air drag is exponential to speed.
Alberta Hwy 2 is 110, but if one drives at that “limit”, you’re blocking the ‘flow’.
Lower speeds are good for reduced fuel usage, less driver stress, less fuel $, maybe fewer accidents.
What’s the rush?
According to a Government of Canada website, mankind’s contribution to CO2 is approximately 3% of the total CO2 contribution (5B tonnes by man versus 150B tonnes by natural sources). Canada’s contribution is also around 3% (so I’m told).
Canada contributes 3% of 3% of the CO2 problem…we should contribute 3% of 3% of the solution. That seems fair to me.
By my (off-the-cuff) calculations, that amount could be saved if Liberal politicians stopped talking. (sarc)
Today I notice an article in the news indicating that scientists have just discovered that plants give off methane…another greenhouse gas. So, what other natural sources of greenhouse gases have the scientists missed?
I have 2000 acres of prime heavy clay farm land located in central Sask. that is ideally suited for sequestering carbon……I’m anxiously waiting for a call…..
The speed limit on the 400 series of Highways in Ontario was 70 mph (120K/h). This includes the 401, 402, 416, 404, etc. Thus the increase in speeding fines for driving on highways at the speed for which they were designed. Serves no real purpose slowing the traffic other than speeding tickets.
In New York State the speed limit has been raised on 4 lane highways from 55 mph to 65. We’re still stuck in the 1970’s. Go figure.
I am one of those earth scientists who is among the group of “man-caused GW” dissenters. I am also old enough to be probably considered fashion challenged. So, I need some advice.
What should one contemplate wearing to a burning at the stake?
Well on behalf of the rest of the world, I’m glad the view shared on this forum is quickly becoming a smaller and smaller minority.
Hey come on now, what’s wrong with China?
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columnists/story.html?id=90d84894-4448-4dfc-8e56-d65c1ba13e54
hey wilco…i’m offering carbon credits from SASKATCHEWAN CANADA….seems like people are more interested in buying them from CHINA….
I have heard about Steyn, but that was the first article of his that I’ve actually read. I have to say that I was dissappointed. It is full of falsisms, misleading statements, and statements that border on being completely retarded. That some of you put any weight on anything this guy has to say is even more dissappointing. Please find somebody with some credibility to quote if you want to counter the climate change advocates.
well, on behalf of my little world, keep your librano/moonbat/dipper/statist/socialist, money grubbing, trough wallowing, Israel hating morons out of my life/family/wallet/land
Mark ought to be required reading in every news room across the western world
I expect I’ll see the Libranos come forward with a zero-tolerance policy for speeding. They will propose legislation that adds a large federal component to fines, that is levied as the product of mass of vehicle times speed in excess of limit(fine in proportion to excess kinetic energy). The proceeds of these fines will be used to purchase carbon credits. I believe the Toronto metrosexual latte-SUV Liberal-voting crowd will jump all over this.
The real inconvenient truth.
I see John Baird is saying to meet Kyoto targets would seriously hamper the economy aka Russia.
If the libs can get our economy down that far we can expect a Putin like regime soon after.
North Korean economy overtaking the US….that isnt the basis of the report thats the goal!
Yoop… brilliant comment. Kudos.
go listen . .
http://www.officiallyscrewed.com/blog/?p=765
by the way folks, the 55MPH speed limit thingy was a very, very cynical proof that Canadians are really interested in personally doing anything about reducing GhG.
Cherenkov,
“is full of falsisms, misleading statements, and statements that border on being completely retarded.”
Name one.
Yoop, that comment may be more prescient than you think. Read http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/article/2792/ to discover moves in Europe to criminalize GW “denial” as an equivalent to Holocaust denial, thus suppressing free discourse on this issue and setting the stage for the new Dark Ages..
I have never heard about cherenkov, but that was the first opinion of his that I’ve actually read. I have to say that I was dissappointed. It is full of falsisms, misleading statements, and statements that border on being completely retarded. That some of you put any weight on anything this guy has to say is even more dissappointing. Please find ANYBODY to quote if you want to counter the climate change skeptics.
… It is full of falsisms, misleading statements, and statements that border on being completely retarded. …
Posted by: cherenkov at February 8, 2007 10:42 AM
Such as?
This issue and it’s impact is worldwide. It’s in china/india and the other mostly exempt nations interest to keep pushing the kyoto accord because it gives them a huge edge in the market place. Because Canadians have been seduced into thinking the kyoto accord is some sort of magic bullet, we will have our already falling standard of living fall a great deal more. It is to late to get reasonable information into the heads of Canadians, they have been sold!
What I find truly sad is that we need to improve how we treat our planet, from the oil sands to city smog. Because of the terrible dishonesty of the vested interests nothing good will be done in Canada. We will eat less, pay more and cough a lot more only because political loyalty is more important than truth.
It’s time we used nuclear power to run the oil sands and it’s long overdue for china and india to be told they must accept an honest and level playing field or no accord of any kind.
For those of you who find snide remarks are appropriate when ridiculing others I ask you to spend some time justifing why the federal parties are being so kind to china with the terrible pollution Asia is contributing to our world. Please don’t give me the third world arguement, I shop at walmart and I can read labels.
The Conservatives, under Harper, are selling “Canadians” (sic) out, outside of Central Canada, our “Firtst Citizens” aka the “QuOns”. Your vote is being sold to buy votes in Quebec for a majority. Mob rule from the center, under the guise of “greening” via Kyoto, or some other hybrid shell game. If the Conservatives lose the next election you have already heard what the Libs-Dips-Bloc will do to your livlihoods, because if you don’t play along with the “green” plan, “… there will be consequences”. So, resurrect the vision of “troops in our streets, in Canada”, because when you become a serf to the interests of your local, provincial or federal government, you might as well be living in the People’s Republic of China. Mr Harper is what is termed a “vendue”, a sell out. He will sell his green plan that will impact even voters in Ontario and Quebec, much to their disliking and those voters will vote Liberal, because Mr Harper’s “pain” will be too much for them to stomach. The Libs come back and will impose no hardship on central Canadians (our First Citizens), but whack everyone else outside of central Canada. Believe it, remember wage and price controls, axing the GST, would you TRUST these lying, thieving crooks? The wrting is on the wall to the oil and gas industries and industry in general – you’re out, green is in. Kiss your jobs goodbye. China is currently producing 70% of our total GHG output now, where do you think they will end up on their total output in the future? They will not reduce it, under any circumstances, short of all out war, becuase they feel that the indutriaized West is to blame and should clean up at their expence (lost jobs and livlihoods), “it’s our turn now”. All these political parties (Lis-Dips_Bloc and now the Cons)have a socilaist/communist bent. The IPCC is directed by Mo Strong and the concept of “one world government”, by the UN. You know, the ones who brought us OIL for Food. This country as we know it, is finished. Your kid’s futures are on the line here – I don’t have any, so I don’t care. You and your kid’s will live in a socialist Gulag and even this medium The internet, will be “controlled”. Welcome to the Gulag. Boston Tea Party anyone? It is time to dismantle this dysfunctional coutry and start again. Mr harper stood for government with his income trust ddecision ” for the good of the country”. Which country and who really benefitted from that decision? Governement employees and corporate pensioners. The private sector taxpayer just gets the bill, nothing for you. Expect restrictions on RRSPs and a goverment raid on the money “avoiding taxes”, not “deferring taxes”, in those accounts. From now on you do not have the rights to the fruits of your labor and will be denied your savings for retirement, because government will need to meet it’s payroll and pension liabilities. Wh really pays in the end? You do, the private sector taxpayer, the “employer” of government supossedly “serving” Canadians. they serve themselves at your expence and give nothing back. You can choose to quit paying taxes if you are in that position, and you can boycott products from the QuOns. This country is rigged for high prices, high taxes to the consumer, you have very few choices available to you. Why support a “rigged economy”. Oh, and read this:
February 5, 2007
Arctic Lessons from the Last Interglacial (Polar bears survived)
Filed under: Polar, Arctic, Extinctions —
In recent years, much has been made of the warming in the northern high latitude region of Earth over the last two decades of the 20th century. Data on glacial and sea ice recession and frightening computer simulations of rising sea levels underscore the doom and gloom of the warmth in the Arctic. On top of this, global climate models are predicting that this region will continue to be a “hotspot” of greatest warming during the 21st century. And, in an effort to drive the impact of all of this home (because who would otherwise really care if the coldest places on earth warmed up a bit), a small, but vocal band of climate alarmists have attempted to convince us that as a result of Arctic warming, everyone’s favorite bear (with the exception of perhaps Teddy and/or Yogi), ursus maritimus—the polar bear—will be pushed to extinction.
The contention of climate alarmists that the late-20th century warming is unprecedented over the past two millennia has been contested with contrary scientific evidence over and over, especially in the high latitudes. As the geologic timeline that is available to the global warming crusade gets spottier, one thing is clear – they can only shorten their sights. Going back to Earth’s last interglaciation is not an option for building their argument that much of the recent warmth is unnatural—because back during the last interglacial warm period, temperatures in the Arctic were higher, and polar bears survived (obviously).
Circum-Arctic PaleoEnvironments (CAPE) is an activity within the International Geosphere-Biosphere Program that aims to facilitate international syntheses of Arctic records of past environments. A 25-member CAPE-Last Interglacial Project Members team recently published an article that further characterizes the Arctic warmth during the time of the last interglaciation (LIG). The work “Last interglacial Arctic warmth confirms polar amplification of climate change” was published earlier this year in Quaternary Science Reviews. Many previous works indicate that Earth was warmer during the LIG than for any other period within the past 250,000 years. However, few detailed quantitative reconstructions of the period exist. The CAPE research group quantitatively estimated circum-Arctic summer air and sea surface temperatures for the LIG as reconstructed from terrestrial- and marine-based proxy records detailed in previous research conducted by a large body of scientists. The group emphasized temperatures in summer because they “exert the dominant control on glacier mass balance” and summer temperature is “the most effective predictor for most biological processes.”
The group found evidence that the LIG persisted for 10,000-12,000 years and that Arctic summer air temperatures during the LIG were 4-5ºC (Figure 1) above present for much of the region, which was well above the LIG average temperature for the rest of Earth. The warming seems to have occurred rapidly, peaking in the early portion of the LIG. The group contends that Arctic summer temperatures were warm enough “to melt all glaciers below 5 km elevation, except the Greenland ice sheet, which was reduced by ca 20-50%.” In regard to Arctic Ocean sea ice, the group states that the margins of the permanent ice “retracted well into the Arctic Ocean basin” and the ice was of an extent that was smaller than during the highly publicized ice retreat of the Holocene. When examining evidence of vegetation changes, the group concluded that “boreal forests advanced to the Arctic Ocean Coast across vast regions of the Arctic currently occupied by tundra.” In fact, across most of northern Russia, they report that forests were displaced northward by as much as 400 to 1000 km.
Figure 1. Regional maximum LIG summer Arctic temperature anomalies (ºC) relative to present. Taken from Cape Project Members (2006).
The CAPE researchers explain that the dramatic surface changes in the Arctic during the LIG would have reduced the albedo (reflectivity to solar radiation) and altered the transfer of energy among the land, atmosphere, and oceans. The changes in the general energy budget seemed to amplify the incoming solar radiation-driven warmth of the LIG through positive feedback. The researchers conclude that the feedback in the Arctic accounts for the greater LIG summer warming (5ºC above today) in the Arctic than across the rest of the Northern Hemisphere (0-2ºC above today). So, the idea of modern polar warming in excess of that of the rest of Earth is not new or unnatural – it clearly defined the climate of the LIG those many years ago. The amount of Arctic warming today relative to the remainder of Earth is much less than with the LIG. As the CAPE researchers note, “During the 20th century, the planetary temperature increased 0.7ºC, whereas most regions of the Arctic record warming of 1–3ºC over the same interval.” The global climate models that produce 21st century climate change scenarios upon which alarmists hang their hats have trouble replicating the Arctic warming. The Cape researchers explain that most of the 20th century warming in the Arctic occurred in summer months, as with the LIG, but model projections indicate winter warming should dominate. The LIG did not experience the increase in greenhouse gases that is projected for the remainder of the 21st century, but still, the model-reality discrepancy is troublesome.
The next time that you see Al Gore’s photo collection of decaying glaciers and polar bears drowning as the distance between icebergs and the shore is too far to swim, think of the LIG – a natural period in Earth’s history when hippopotamus and the water tortoise were widespread as far north as Great Britain and birch forests reached the shores of the Arctic Ocean. Remember that then, as now, the Arctic naturally warmed more dramatically than the rest of the world, and also keep in mind that our modern global climate models – those that sit next to the panic button – are stumbling around that reality.
Reference:
CAPE Project Members, 2006. Last interglacial Arctic warmth confirms polar
amplification of climate change. Quaternary Science Reviews, 25, 1383-1400.
Posted: http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/02/05/arctic-lessons-from-the-last-interglacial-polar-bears-survived/#more-216
Cherenkov, please provide specifics.
Are there any plans in the works to have Africa and North Korea to send millions of dollars, food etc to Canada and the US to feed the starving, cure some disease. Is there a reverse Bono waiting to be born. If they take over as major economies they must remember to have a national Liberal Day of thanks, as it is liberals like Strong, Chretain and Dion who will have been responsible.
Some mall or something was featured on TV as an example of building Green. 60,000 of our money was used to build it. Has anyone calculated the emmissions caused by making all those straw bales they used for insulating the walls. How did they fireproof them.
“Today I notice an article in the news indicating that scientists have just discovered that plants give off methane…another greenhouse gas. So, what other natural sources of greenhouse gases have the scientists missed?”
So true, Eeyore. But by far the worst offending greenhouse gas is simple water vapor! Shouldn’t we factor steam into the apocalypse? Steam’s a problem!
For anyone who missed them, check out two great recent pieces on the subject by the great David Warren (davidwarrenonline.com).
“Well on behalf of the rest of the world, I’m glad the view shared on this forum is quickly becoming a smaller and smaller minority.
Posted by: wilco at February 8, 2007 10:30 AM”
As you seem to be a believer in MAN-CAUSED GW, wilco, maybe you can answer some questions for me. I haven’t been able to get an answer from ANY of the other non-skeptics I have personally queried. Most of them also advocate Kyoto-type solutions to what they define as the problem.
I do assume, since you appear to be a non-skeptic, that you have done your homework, checked facts, and checked citiations so that your are comfortable with the proof offered by the scientists and politicians that are now claiming that the present climate change is caused by man, and also their claim that there is no room left for debate of their claims.
Since it is assumed that you have done such research, to your satisfaction, maybe you can answer these simple questions.
1) Where in the geologic column is the earliest known evidence of glaciation on the earth’s surface? The answer to that surprises even most earth scientists.
2) How many major glacial advances AND retreats upon the earth’s surface are indicated in the geologic column?
3) How many of these advances and retreats pre-date the existence of the industrial revolution?
4) What, exactly, made these past glacial advances retreat? A warming climate?
5) Do these past advances and retreats in the geologic record suggest a cyclic pattern?
6) What does the geologic record suggest as to the rapidity of the past advances and retreats of glaciers?
7) If carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is such a dire thing now, what was it like in the past? IOW, where did all that carbon dioxide come from that is presently tied up in the incalculably VAST amount of carbonate rocks in the geologic column?
8) There are fossils from temperate, sub-tropical, and tropical climates found in Arctic regions. How did they get there, and when did they get there?
After you have addressed these simple observations we can then move on to the more difficult, yet even more interesting, points of evidence that address the cyclic nature of the climate that pre-dates man’s interaction with it.
BTW, did Al Gore address any of these items, or would it have been “Inconvenient” for him?
Oh, damn… now I’m really screwed for the next day or two. Remember that old song from the 60’s? “Where Have All the Flowers Gone”.
Now I have that melody stuck in a loop running through my mind: “Where have all the glaciers gone, long time ago…”
You KNOW how long it takes to get that kind of thing out of the mind-loop. Guess I’ll just have to have a sit-in.
Yoop, They don’t burn heretics because of the emmissions, you will instead be “sequestered”.
Dion and Hargrove are on tv re the loss of jobs in Ont. Why doesn’t dion tell those auto workers making all that easy money is not good for the economy. Dion is prepared to cause the loss of thousands of jobs in Alberta, but is worried about a job loss in Ont. He said the liberals had a plan but Harper killed it. Yes, the plan was the auto industry was exempt from kyoto. I look at it as Ont doing its part to reduce emmissions by all those unemployed auto workers. Nothing has been suggested that perhaps those workers and their union contracts are in any way to blame. Just think of the emmissions saved by 2000 workers not driving to work, possibly having to eat less, heat less, going out less.
But, I bet they will still vote liberal. Save ont and to hell with the greatest part of Canada.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Here are a few:
“In the ’70s, it (the science) was predicting a new ice age.” This is incorrect: “the science” never predicted this. There were magazines that published articles to this effect, but it was never published in a scientific journal. By contrast, there are hundreds of journal articles on global warming.
“If it’s 53 with sunny periods and light showers, you need to grab an overnight bag and get outta there right now because “climate change” is accelerating out of control.” Is he five years old? The term “climate change” acknowledges that impacts would include more than just “warming”. If the predictions are correct (and I am not saying they are, by the way) they include increased frequency of droughts, more volatile weather, etc..
“Then the Little Ice Age showed up, and they (Vikings) all died. A terrible warning to us all about “unsustainable development””. I know he’s being facetious (or I hope he is) but it is still an inaccurate statement. The “mini iceage” didn’t kill all of the vikings.
Why quote Mark Fenn from the WWF? I thought we were talking about science? Trying to pass an enviro-wacko off as a scientist is not helpful to the debate.
“It’s predicated on the North Korean economy overtaking the United States”. Oh really? Do all of the 1000+ peer-reviewed studies on climate change have this as a necessary condition? I would like to know how he arrived at this conclusion. Probably the stupidest scentence I have read in a long time.
And for the record, I do NOT support Kyoto. I just want an intellegent debate on the subject, and intellegent government policy.
Speaking of climate change, I seem to recall in my past readings on the race to discover the Northwest Passage it was claimed that the explorers relied heavily on written accounts from whalers who had frequented the area decades earlier.
Those accounts indicated that the sea was ice-free. Of course when the explorers showed up decades later the opposite was true; the sea was largely ice-bound, but the belief still persisted that the area nearest the North Pole was completely ice-free and all one had to do was punch through the icy outer ring to claim the prize.
Now assuming the whalers’ accounts were true – it’s hard to believe they’d be in the area if no whaling could be done due to ice – it would seem that the sea progressed from being relatively ice-free to ice-bound.
In other words the climate changed. Before George Bush. Before citoyen Dion named his dog Kyoto.
How could that be?