CTV;
Andrea Johnson was remembered as a loving mother who eventually succumbed to a depression she could no longer fight, tragically committing suicide and taking her son’s life.
Johnson jumped from the Morningside overpass onto Hwy. 401 below on Dec. 3 with her two-year-old son Sulla Genua. The mother died at the scene while her son passed away en-route to hospital.
Her sister, Tanesha, gave the eulogy at a funeral service for both the mother and son.
“When Sulla was very small, Andrea would read him books, teach him the days of the week and his numbers.”
Calling Johnson a beautiful young woman, she said her sister was a source of pride.
Tanesha apologized to her late sister for not recognizing the depth of depression Johnson was experiencing.
Now, ask yourself a question. Had it been the father who, in the “depth of depression” had dragged a screaming two year old Sulla Genua into the middle of the street and shot him in the back of the head, before turning the gun on himself – would the Toronto Star be mourning his unfulfilled university degree? Might the Globe And Mail headline note his “devotion” as a father?
Would they have commented on his looks?
Patrick Kelly of the National Post is one of few who get it right. Murder-by-Mommy is no statistical aberration;
While the Canadian public worries about perverted strangers or abusive fathers taking the lives of young children, it is biological mothers who are doing much of the killing. Women murder their children nearly as often as men; more often when the victims are under five years of age, according to experts on child killings, and to Statistics Canada data.
The reality check doesn’t last long, however. A few paragraphs into the article, University of Toronto criminology professor Rosemary Gartner pops in to restore these “almost more gentle” killers to their proper status as victims.
Update – John B, points out in the comments that in 2005, a “loaded missile” threw his 5 year old daughter from a bridge on the 401, and then jumped.
“Psssst…Deb…Three consecutive angry comments is generally considered to be evidence of mental instability; for a better, more efficient knee jerk defense of all things female, try containing your virulent anti-male hate to one comment, mmm-kay sweetie?”
Did you decide that, too, Bob? Who made you the police of all things? Actually, using namecalling and patronizing others is more of a sign of instability and insecurity than someone offering their opinions. And I fear that you hating women is the issue. I know of guys like you Bob. I don’t generally bother with them at all. Which is why I’m now through with you. Get many dates Bob?
Well, I’ve been clinically depressed myself, although likely not to the level she was. I don’t think I would have used it as a defense to shoplifting, much less murder, and even less murder of my child.
I just love the claims that except for this one little thing she was a great mother. That comes under the “Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play” approach.
matt,
My point about depression and whether she was able to appreciate her acts is an important one (indeed THE important one in determining whether she was legally capable of murder).
It seems we brush right past that though and declare her innocent by virtue of “depression” by the level of heinousness of her act.
In other words, if a woman does something that awful and kills herself, she couldn’t possibly have meant to do it.
What if it was her last, most selfish act, wanting to die, but not wanting to “be without” her child.
On the face of it, you’d think murdering ones child should generally recieve societal condemnation. Instead we get immediate explanations/justifications, that don’t supplant or mitigate, but rather replace, that condemnation.
People suffering from depression are victimizeed in our society by attitudes towards depression and in general, mental disease.
That’s a ridiculous generalization. I doubt there is anyone that doesn’t know what Prozac treats in this day and age, just as a measure of how mainstream our acceptance and understanding of depression is in the last decade.
I’m sure she honestly thought, in her illness, that she was doing what was “best” for them both…..And I’m sure that this attitude was one that she encountered every day…people like this need support, kindness and understanding.
Hey, Deb, you’re “sure”? How sure? Based on what?
Let’s get this straight, depression is an affect disorder not a cognitive disorder. There are people that, a very small percentage, can become depressed to the point they are psychotic. Was she? Suicide correlates clinically with depression, homicide doesn’t. Murders don’t get off because they were depressed. What this woman’s thought processes were at the time she decided – rationally, irrationally, impulsively, selfishly, under the influence? – to kill her child along with herself, I don’t know, you don’t know, and, that is the reason that any attempt by the MSM to make her a victim without all of these unknowns known is wrong.
Didn’t take long for Deb to come unravelled.
I don’t think this woman was “using it as a defense”. She used it as a way out. You’ve missed the entire point, that being each INDIVIDUAL case is just that. You’re basing things on what YOU would do/not do. Have you walked a mile in her shoes? You’re not her. That’s the whole point here – you think because you’ve been depressed you know all about it. You know all about YOUR depression/situation, not hers. I’m not suggesting her actions were excusable or what should’ve happened. It’s absolutely tragic and I’m just more willing to try and look beyond WHAT has happened in order to understand why it happened. You can stand around pointing and playing the blame game all day, but what does it resolve? You can’t punish her, she’s already done that. So do we look beyond the tragedy and try and ensure it doesn’t get to this point again.
Alex…just because YOU didn’t get to that point doesn’t mean a thing…she did. She probably was a great mother who was mentally unstable and did what she thought was the only thing left to do. It doesn’t excuse her actions, but we need to understand them. And because you’re holier than thou, you don’t. As long as people do nothing more than stand back and say this evil woman was wrong (which may be correct) and she shouldn’t have done this, nothing will change. Another one will come along and do the same thing. If we look further into why some take these desperate measures and get beyond the “blame”, we might actually make some progress in preventing it from happening agian. That’s all.
This is a report by Senator Anne Cools. I think that the idea of personel resposability for crimes has been usurped by the left . There liking for criminals is obvious. How else would you explain there giving the vote to child murders?
Half the Liberals are would be wiseguys, if not a few made men in the mob. Canada is a criminal paradise.
Its absolutly insane to think Women only commit crimes because of Men & ONLY Men. This is the offical myth of Corrections Canada. Its prisons reflect this lie. A name by the way that says it all.
This goes part & parcel with the feminist movements push to deify Women while makeing men into monsters. To render marrage with the same sex as unatural.
One just has to read the history of Edmontons Women prision to see how out of touch these people are with human nature let alone individuals, if not any common sense or reason but dogma. Its all a collective bunch of BS.
Just my opinion.
http://www.sen.parl.gc.ca/acools/english/Speeches/2001/speeches_Feb5.htm
Deb’s not “unravelled”, k?
Penny…have you worked in a drug treatment centre? Prozac is a wonderful tool for some. But it’s not the be all to end all and isn’t always the answer. Some people end up with serious addictions to anti-depressants, so don’t be so quick to give the magic pill to fix things.
And before you put things in italics, make sure it’s what I said. Glad you twisted things to sound how you like them. I’m saying that often people with mental illness, depression, living on welfare or in poverty ARE categorized. Dispute that. I’m glad that the compassion club has come out in full force…as I’ve said before, one day you could be down and out and expect to receive what you give in this world, k? I’m not unravelled, just disappointed that some will never look beyond their perfect worlds to those who perhaps just aren’t so fortunate. This woman did the wrong thing but she was obviously in a desperate state. And I hope she never knocked on any of your doors before she did what she did.
I don’t think the point of the post is this woman’s state of mind. Her thinking was obviously very disordered. The point is the treatment of this tragedy by the MSM. Has anyone ever seen such a display by all the media outlets be it print or TV when a man was the perpetrator of such a crime? Why isn’t there an investigation into every details of her personal life that men in a similar situation are subjected to? We are given the opinions of her friends and family as gospel. This is a blatant double standard.
Depression + hormones (post partum) = “loss of control over self-destructive impulses.”
Depression + hormones (testosterone) = “male seeking control, strikes out in violence.”
“Actually, using namecalling and patronizing others is more of a sign of instability and insecurity than someone offering their opinions. And I fear that you hating women is the issue. I know of guys like you Bob. I don’t generally bother with them at all. Which is why I’m now through with you. Get many dates Bob?”
This qualifies.
Before anyone accuses me of being some kind of “lefty”, I’m as conservative as it gets. Conservative doesn’t mean insensitive or unsympathetic.
Unlike Deb above, I don’t agree that it’s obvious what the mother’s intention was. However considering what people who knew the mother well are saying about her, it seems obvious she was deeply disturbed and not thinking rationally. It’s tragic, and I’m extremely saddened for the child who was murdered.
I am willing to extend my sympathy to the mother, who was seemingly also a victim of severe mental ilness. This mental illness does not result from, as Deb suggests, poverty and poor living conditions, though if untreated it may ultimately result in a those things.
The argument regarding “what if it was a man” is, unfortunately, not at all ridiculous, from what I’ve seen. Women are far more likely to receive sympathy from the courts, from the media, and from people in general.
Deb said: “Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing I HATE MEN elit, sed diam nonummy PENIS ENVY nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet UNRESOLVED DADDY ISSUES dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi YOURE NOT THE BOSS OF ME AND MY GENDER enim ad minim GIRL POWER veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis KILL THE BABY nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.”
Creeeeepy.
Deb I did two weeks in a local loonie bin in my late teens,( I’m certainly not proud of it) I lived in a small town of four hundred( I easily made top spot in the coffee shop talk) , and had too walk the streets when I got out and I did(that I was proud of).
You know nothing of stigma, and frankly still today what people think of me for my actions then, they have a right to. Its not their job to understand its only a courtesy.
People have their own lives to lead, I got on with mine.
If I can do it anyone can.
So Deb I’m releasing you from any obligation on my part, I didn’t need a bleeding heart when I got out then and I sure as heck don’t now.
Kate (aka Mrs. Bob)…yes, I’ve stooped to Bob’s level, in order to communicate with him in a manner he (and you) understands.
But his current rant shows his maturity level and if that’s what this place is all about, I’m out of here.
(and Jimbo, I’m not suggesting that mental illness is the result of these conditions, although I’m pretty sure they can cause some serious depression, which, if left unchecked, can lead to more serious problems.)
I’m done with this place. I know who I am and feel good that I can look beyond the “burn her at the stake” mentality that some here seem to display. People don’t kill their children without some serious issues leading them there. I ony suggest we look at those issues before making this about male/female treatment in these cases. That may very well also be an issue, but it’s overshadowed by something much more important here. A child died, is anything else important here?
Creepy is right Bob…you’re off the deep end.
And before you put things in italics, make sure it’s what I said.
I did, Deb. How about revisiting your post at 12:48. You wrote it. I quoted.
Deb, anti-depressants have no addictive properties.
But, Deb, your confusion over my perceived quote misattribution and addictive substances seems the least of your problems right now.
I’d call it a day, Deb.
That’s you Mugs, and you do not speak for everyone. Which is my entire point – each individual case is different. This isn’t “cookie cutter” and that was your experience, not someone else’s. I’m glad for you, I just think that you’re another to “lump” it all in together. “If I can do it anyone can”…well, maybe it’s not that easy for some. You were a teen. Did you have a child to raise on your own at that point? You’ve stated you were proud…perhaps at that point in life it’s almost “cool” to be “on the street”. Maybe it didn’t hit you as hard. Maybe it did..that’s just my point. You are not her. Your situation is your own and doesn’t mean it applies to everyone else. “It’s not their job to understand”…it’s also not their job to pass judgement, that’s all. You sound like a bitter man, still. Two weeks hardly seems sufficient time to resolve serious depression/mental illness.
And, although I said I’m outta here, I find another comment that leaves me shaking my head.
Referring to it as “the loonie bin” gives me a pretty good indication of your feelings on the whole deal. I don’t expect you to understand, just because “you’ve been there” doesn’t make you the expert on everyone else. Just on you, that’s all,
“Anti-depressants have no addictive qualities”. I won’t even address you anymore if that’s what you believe.
While it would be naive to suggest that women aren’t just as capable of violence as men, this discussion has thusfar ignored the fact that the law has long recognized that women who kill their young children often do so for different reasons than men. That difference is recognized in our current Criminal Code by s.233, which provides that a woman — and only a woman — who kills her new-born child is guilty of infanticide (rather than murder)and faces a maximum penalty of five years in jail. A similar English provision applies to mothers who kill their children in the first year of life.
This provision in Anglo-American criminal law predates feminism and recognizes the fact that some women are so overwhelmed by the challenges of child-rearing that the suffer from some form of mental illness and that, under those circumstances, it would be unjust to hold them fully responsible for their actions.
Had she survived, Andrea Johnson would have been charged with murder, not infanticide, but given the facts we do know, it seems fair to infer that mental illness played some part in her actions. To ignore that reasonable inference and suggest she’s getting more favourable media coverage because of an anti-male bias or becaseu she was a black woman is dishonest. As is attempting to compare the coverage of her murder-suicide with that of the father who repeatedly phoned his estranged wife to taunt her as he drove to the overpass with his five-year-old daughter. The difference arises, not because of the media hates men, but because the facts and the apparent motive were entirely different.
Nope, my post at 12:48 did not include “your version” of my quote, anywhere. Nice try though, putting your words as mine.
This was a horribly tragic event, and my heart really goes out to the peple involved.
Nobody in their right mind would do something like this, man or woman, The press double standard is the worst part of it. When men do this they are vilified, as many other people point out. I also find it amusing the way the press is treating the devoted father who wasn’t actually devoted enough to live with his child and her mother, and chose to let the taxpayer support his family.
And, ftr, while anti-depressants may not be physically addictive (questionable), they do often cause “withdrawal symptoms” as people stop taking them. This leads to a struggle with getting off them, which can culiminate in a psychological addiction.
Oh, and one of the initial side effects of antidepressants can be an increase in depression/suicidal tendencies…imagine that? So it looks like the magic pill isn’t the be all to end all and can come with a hefty price. Who knows, she could’ve been on them.
Deb, I don’t think I have ever before come across a person who could be described as having a sense of “raving compassion” before.
Isn’t there some sort of “alcoholic’s prayer” (or something like that) that goes along the lines of…
GOD give me the serenity to accept the things I CANNOT change courage to change the things I CAN and the wisdom to know the difference!
You can fall over yourself trying to “understand” and feel “compassion” for people who kill their children. But, in the end, they must be categorized as freaks.
Yes, depression is real and devastating. But, we can only go so far in trying to find these people and “help” them before they go over the edge. Now, I don’t know you. Maybe you’re on board with ideas like Tony Blair’s plan to send government people over to the homes of mothers who are raising children that are considered “at risk” of future bad things (because they’re single-parents, or poor, or live in a bad neighbourhood) so that they can be properly “assessed” by the ever-loving and benign government. But, that idea scares the hell out of me.
A person needs a lot of things (with different strokes for different folks) to be balanced and happy. You can worry about whether or not all people have all that they need if you like. Most of the rest of us have other things to do (like making sure our own lives are in order).
Accept the things that you cannot change. Some people are going to have bad up-bringings and ALL people will have feelings of depression. Most have the capacity and infrastructure to deal with it. Those that don’t – well that sucks. Those who take their own lives – that’s real unfortunate.
But, those who take the lives of innocents with them can safely be described as freaks and I (in the strongest terms) refuse to take any blame or feel any guilt for having a lack of “compassion” for such freaks.
I don’t hate them. I look at them the same way I would look at a rabid dog. I don’t hate the dog. I don’t take pleasure in seeing it put down. But I also don’t feel any guilt for putting him down because I didn’t give him the rabies.
I don’t know you…but, I am willing to bet that you too have a limit on tolerance and “compassion”. Ted Bundy had a crappy young life. But he went from victim to freak when he decided that torturing and murdering young women was an outlet for that.
You are receiving a bad reaction here, Deb because you sound like so many of those people who would come to the defense of people who can only be described as freaks. People who have lost their sense of empathy – without empathy, a person is indeed less human (what else separates us from savages?) I don’t care how they lost it. That is an academic issue to be examined after they are buried.
If you want to play Mother Theresa and go on a mission to find all people who have lost their empathy and represent a danger to the most innocent people they know (their own children) – then fine. But, don’t chastise the rest of us for calling a spade a spade.
There’s a lot here that doesn’t make sense. The Aunt made it sound like Sulla couldn’t speak, yet neighbors described him as a talkative little boy. She was estranged from her parents, was a single mom and spent time in a shelter. After she had the baby? Where was the father?
Did her family, and the father, really know her? Was Andrea’s act one of selfish control? Or one of misguided maternal love that he would be better off too if she couldn’t be there to look after him?
It sounds as if the help was there if she’d wanted it.
I’m disturbed at a lot of these comments that betray a lack of sympathy for someone’s illness.
It is certainly true that the media and others suffer from a number of politically correct double standards, including their portrayal of crime by women.
However, showing an understanding of sickness is not politically correct – it is just “correct” plain and simple.
Anyone who has ever lived with someone experiencing mental illness knows that yes, even “wonderful”, “gentle”, “loving” mothers, and fathers, brothers and sisters quickly become unrecognizable as the people we once knew. Love and trust and joy become twisted into fear and suspiscion and depression, and rational thought becomes completely skewed. Schizophrenia, Bipolar and Depression are real diseases, not left wing conspiracies, and their effect on people and families is often devastating. I have no idea of course (and neither do most of us) what this woman’s character or situation was like, but indications are she may have been sick, and that deserves some sympathy.
In terms of the law, it is only a double standard if women are treated differently than men because of their gender with all other factors being equal. Circumstances do make a difference to how we view certain actions – and most of us would hope that our circumstances would mitigate any penalty. Although some women do kill out of the same self-centeredness and rage as their male counterparts, as a group, their crimes are more likely to be related to emotional and psychological crimes rather than the criminal lifestyles that characterize the male murderer. (and my acquaintance with a good number of murderers seems to support this view.)
I hope that some of the posters here come to learn that anti-woman macho posturing is not the same as intelligently arguing against the faulty tenets of radical feminism. Otherwise we will simply demonstrate to the left and liberals that their characterization of conservatives as cold-hearted, narrow minded bigots is correct.
Elementary schools practice lock-downs just like fire drills these days and the most realistic potential threat is parents. Either mother or father attempting breach of custody kidnappings or heaven forbid something even more dramatic. So tiny little ones huddle in the back of a dark, locked classrooms wondering if this time is real or a drill.
Our collective victimhood mentality has tricked us into thinking there are some good excuses for murder. So when a baby dies it’s, “Yes, but Mom was depressed…what a brave courageous woman.” The feelings of the woman are supreme. Men, victimizers all, get no free pass.
It’s the most hideous manifestation of feminism’s self-absorption. In life and in death children are not seen as important anymore. It leaves the children huddling in dark corners or even fending for their lives while their supposed protectors are deemed admirable in the newspaper.
So, by labelling her a “freak” and saying we couldn’t do anything, how does that help the next child who happens to live with a “freak” who thinks they have no other option?
You’ve said “we can only go so far in trying to find these people and “help” them before they go over the edge”. You’re right, we can’t “babsit” them and watch their every move. But we can learn from this on how we’ve “failed” and where the weaknesses in the system are? I don’t agree with the government visits – useless and I have no faith in that. I’m talking more along the lines of supportive groups, programs aimed at integrating the mom/child into the community more and helping them to feel less isolated. I don’t know the facts or how much was done to help them. I just know that, as a single mom, sometimes it’s a very lonely, scary reality. What triggered this? How did she get to this point?
I just know that I can’t hate on a woman who did what no woman could imagine…take the life of her child in an act of desperation. That makes me want to know how she got to this point and how we can prevent it in the future. Or, we could just say “she’s a freak and we couldn’t do anything”. That’s easier. You see, you tend to see it as HER problem, I see it as society’s problem and something not working somewhere along the line. I like the old saying “it takes a village….”.
I give up…the people here are obviously interested in the “me” story and no wonder I’m so disenchanted with the world.
Rudy, I agree with most of what you say, but fathers who kill there children are not in the same catagory as gang bangers and druggies. I suspect that have the same issues as mothers who kill there children, or the male equivalent:
she was suffering from post partum depression.
he was suffering from the “i’ve been accused of molesting my child by a vindictive B***, so I will never get to see them again and I’m living in my car and paying for her to be shacked up with someone else in my house ” rage. Unfortunatly there isn’t a word in the english language to sum that feeling up in.
Sorry for you Deb, but my stmt that depressed people will not admit they need help and there is little family or friends can do is true. You can’t admit them to a hospital, you can’t get the police to help someone threatening to kill themselves, until they do something, 9/11 wont respond because you are worried about the mental health of a friend or family member. You can have all these resourses, but until the depressed person tells one of them she/he needs or wants help, and if they are over 18, you can’t do a thing for them. That is where the problem lies. Close family members and good friends can try all they want, but it is useless, at least in Alberta. Lets have a through investigation into this womans life, did she have problems in school, did she ever use drugs, did she party around, what kind of relationships did she have with family and men. Of course the family will say she was wonderful, great mother etc. What kind of family life did she have. No one want to admit they screwed up somewhere along the line.
One factor that is never mentioned in these sad cases is, how many depressed women had an abortion as a teenager. The feminists and groups like sows and waa have preached the culture of death for years. Get rid of that fetus and you life will be happy ever after. Research papers showing the increase in depression and breast cancer in women who have had one or more abortions is never given the media attention it deserves. Wouldn’t want the truth out there, like the DDT scam. Remember Greens lied and people died.
Deb, you have to understand, when blogging on conservative blogs, that our lack of compassion, in this case, is due to our rugged individualism.
You are blogging with giants. Each and every one of us is an heroic, self made man, or woman, who trekked across the wilderness, battling savages, to carve out our piece of the world, with help from no man, and little from God.
Each of us is a combination of Davy Crockett, Dan’l Boone, John Wayne, John Galt, and Jiffy John, (the portable toilet on construction sites).
We’ll sit at our computers and call this tragic young woman nasty names, and bitch about the unfairness of media reportage. When has the media EVER reported on an event in its entirety, with all the pertinent information? Never.
I can’t even comment on what led up to this murder/suicide. I wasn’t there, and the MSM and all us bloggers weren’t either. What, if anything, could have been done to prevent this, we’ll never know, but maybe the lesson for everyone is, when you meet someone living in unfavorable circumstances, give them some of your time and listen to their story. Maybe you can help to stop the slide before it gains momentum. I have. Sometimes it works.
This story isn’t about race, SOW, the welfare state, abortion, or any other convenient category. It’s just a tragedy about the deaths of two young people, and politicising it doesn’t make it any better. It just makes me sick.
Merry Christmas, fellow bloggers.
Deb said, “So, by labelling her a “freak” and saying we couldn’t do anything, how does that help the next child who happens to live with a “freak” who thinks they have no other option?”
It doesn’t help the next child. What I am saying is that there are no guarantees that there won’t be a next child. Once again, I say, accept the things you cannot change.
When something terrible like this happens, many people (especially those who are personally involved – like family) start going into the useless cycle of thinking of “What could I have done to prevent this?” They want to imagine that they can jump into a time machine and go back and change things. No one likes to feel powerless in events that impact them directly.
But, we must accept that there are sometimes things that cannot be helped – we may not like to feel powerless…but we must accept that we cannot prevent every (or even most) tragedies.
I mean no disrespect, but I feel that folks like you, who advocate creating support groups and programs (which – if they lack popular support will require government support and legislation) are taking their unwillingness to accept that they are powerless too far. The inability to say “What’s done is done and I hope it never happens again” is superseded by the all-powerful voice that says, “I can make sure it never happens again as long as I get some sort of system set up to force people to get the help that I think they need.” I find this view arrogant, dangerous, and a perfect example of the adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The best way to prevent things like this from happening is to have everyone ensure that they have the proper support network of friends and family who can help them and be supportive. But, then you also have to find a way to ensure that someone who feels depressed goes to that network for help when they need it.
You CANNOT legislate that. All morality and values must come from within. I wish everyone had a good up-bringing and a good set of friends whom they trusted. And I wish that everyone who needed help would go to the people they are close to when they feel that depressed. But, I am smart enough to realize that I can’t control that.
And, as far as the “freak” label goes…I am not saying that someone who is depressed and suicidal/homicidal is a “freak”. What I am saying is that there is a line between what a person is based on their thoughts/feelings versus their actions.
If a friend came to me and said something that made me feel they were down, stuck in a rut, or even dangerous, I would talk to them, support them and offer them anything they needed to get back into a good state. If they needed more advanced support, I would advise them to get it and I would even hold their hand through it.
But, if that same friend pulled a stunt like this woman did, I would label them a freak without hesitation. Because, at that point they have crossed a line…and they are certainly no longer the same person that my “friend” was to me.
To think about murdering your child is sick. To actually do it is evil.
dmorris, well said my friend. I think the word of the day is responsibility. It is too easy for people like Deb to blame society, government, men or the boogie person rather than take personal responsibility.
just an observation but her ad homen attacks on those who don’t agree with her says it all.
and it’s too easy for people like you, Texas, to say it’s not my responsibility/problem. And it’s not. But does that mean we shouldn’t get involved or try and help? When women become so depressed that they think their only option is to “check out” with their child, that’s all of our problem, not just hers. Because it impacts all of us, or at least it should.
If you see a car wreck on the side of the road, it’s not your responsibility/problem, right? But does that mean you just drive by it and pretend you don’t see it?
Posted by: mbaron.ca at December 10, 2006 03:32 PM
these comments are exactly what we are talking about……..now it the father of the child’s fault that the mother killed her child…go figure……maybe they never lived together, maybe they did and she left, BUT oh no it is the father’s fault?????????????? give it a break
The media interpretation is obviously biased and only serves to promuglate the leftard agenda. That being that man are bad and women are good. Logically speaking that is a ridiculous statement.
Having some personal experience with manic/depression or in the PC vernacular “bi-polar disorder”, I offer this.
I have used this “state” to my advanage and my discredit. In the oilpatch it’s called “go hard or go home”. Going hard is admired and going home is admonished.
I have yet to see any sociologist study the consequences of a life spent working yer nuts off.
The dollar equivelent of this ham handed analogy can be found in the difference in research dollars for breast and testicular cancer.
My bad.
Syncro
“Each individual case is different.”
“We should look at what gets a person to this point and try to fix it before it happens.” (root cause)
So, which is it? If each individual case is different, how can there be a universal root cause?
The problem is that although it’s a tremendously sad situation, and one should feel compassion for a person fallen to this depth – the compassion ends when the murdercide is commited. There is no justification for this act. And there cannot be, otherwise society is condoning more of it.
There are ways out. If there is no family support, what about all our tax dollars that have been pumped into social programs to help people like this? The programs are hardly hidden.
Or, how about the ‘fundamentalist hard religious right.’ I’m sure the Salvation Army wouldn’t have turned her away. In fact no true Christian organization would have. And they do it out of real compassion, with their own money. And the ‘root cause’ found is sometimes spiritual and often correctable. (I’m sure that’s enough to make lefty’s froth at the mouth and crawl across the ceiling)
But what makes this tragedy more disturbing is the politicization of it by the media in order to further a disgustingly bigoted agenda. As well, media justification and pandering does not help other women who may fall into the same situation. It seems to me the media enjoys creating victims.
And that’s a crime.
Irwin
Well said. If I might change a few words?
In fact no true christian would have looked away.
We will look after ourselves.
Syncro
I urge all of you to read up on the side effects of Prozac when one starts taking it, or the side effects when you stop. They are very scary. Several years ago a 12 year old great-neice come to live with me. Her mother gave me her prozac, I put it in the cupboard and forgot about it. She had had a problem in her BC school with a violent act. She had seen a therapist, but was told by him not to repeat what they discussed. I found the prozac and read all about it. One side effect is that it can cause a person to become violent etc. I then checked into when she started taking these pills, and when said attack happened. Found out it was 3 days after taking her first pill and no one connected the 2 events. She had never done anything like that before, or since. I never let her continue the pills. Her family life had been mess. Divorce, mother left the kids, father changed liveins 7 times in 10 yrs. Lived in 4 provinces, 6 cities and she had been in 7 schools and was in grade 8. She was off to a bad future. She needed a home where she was the only one to lavish attention on, and we couldn’t provide it as we were raising a handicapped grandson. We found her a home with cousin of her grandfather whose children were grown. Even when she pulled stunts that would turn you grey, they told her they loved her and were keeping her. She loved the farm life, learned to ride, joined 4H and became a happy teenager and is doing very well now. Graduated, working and stays away from her parents. Never needed prozac again. I think prozac and retalin are the easy outs for teachers and parents and those 2 drugs cause more damage than good. So, go back in this mothers childhood to find the roots of her problems. It is way past time for parents to provide the needs of children and family, not the wants.
If you see a car wreck on the side of the road, it’s not your responsibility/problem, right? But does that mean you just drive by it and pretend you don’t see it?
No, but, if I found out that the driver wrecked their car in an attempt to kill themselves and their kids, I would feel a hell of a lot less compassion for the driver.
Mary
It’s about getting back to the dirt. A little dirt under your fingernails is a good thing. But it also works on other levels.
Check out this link:
http://www.truehope.com/
Syncro
yikers…
As someone who has been there, done that (and I feel I can say this in such a flippant way, although there was nothing flippant about it)
I have to dispell some of Deb’s comments.
There is no addiction to anti-depressants that I am aware. There is a period of 2-3 days when a person going on an SSRI will have HORRIBLE side-effects. Buzzing in the head, extreme nausea, and vertigo, to name some. It goes away after you build a tolerance to the drug. Unfortunately, the same side-effects are present when you come off the drug- which is why the dr or the psychiatrist needs to gradually decrease the dosage- going cold turkey off these drugs can be fatal. All that said, some people may not experience these side-effects, or may to a lesser degree.
What is not a side effect is suicide. Rather, what happens is that when one has depression, your affect is “depressed”. You hardly see a depressed (acute) person commit suicide as they literally do not have the energy to carry it out. They say the first few weeks after a person gets on the drug and starts seeing some improvement are the most dangerous- the depressed affect has been lifted enough to make physicality easier- but the depression is still lurking. THIS is the time most people who are depressed will try suicide- if they are going to. Not all depressed people will try to commit suicide.
As for stigma, I had no problem with it. Maybe others have. But I think most people know that clinical depression is the “common cold” of mental illness in that MANY people have suffered from it, know someone who has or is suffering right now. I also think that many people realize that it is a chemical imbalance in the brain- Helen Mayberg has done some amazing research in this area.
If a stigma still exists, it is most likely for men. Women are more likely to go to a dr is something is wrong compared to a man, and mental illness is no exception. Women are considered to be more “in tune” with their feelings and talking about it compared to men.
MissMatt, Bryceman: (with apologies if this has been said … no time to read all the posts).
I suffered a only moderate depression in the early 90s and I can verify what MM says: unbelievably scary experience. Total paranoia, uncontrollable weeping without warning, total hopelessnes.
But Bryceman correctly reminds us that the issue is the differential medial treatment NOT the tragic behaviour resulting from despair.
We should certainly chide the media bias but perhaps demur from calling her a murderer.
Me ND
A spsde is a spade.
Syncro
There are a number of issues that need examined here. Bottom line: suicide is a result of untreated depression. Did this woman or her friends/family/the kid’s dad present(her) to mental health professionals for treatment? Where was eulogizing sister before this train wreck ended? Did anyone watching her deterioration call appropriate authorities? The ridiculous notion that society failed her is misplaced. She herself/her family/her friends/the kid’s dad are all on the short list of culprits to those that want to assign blame. I’m not even seeing with the facts or lack of them in this story where the mental health profession failed her.
And, tori, your points are well taken. I’ve been a psych nurse for, never mind, I’m older than dirt, long enough to feel very good at the huge cultural shift in the stigma assigned to the mentally ill. I’ve been around long enough too to observe the abuse of mental illness as a defense with the vacuous MSM and by today’s defense lawyers. I’ve been around long enough to observe that severely personality disordered people do bad things that sometimes are assigned to their concurrent depression. I’m not saying that is the case here, but, scepticism is in order in a story so short on details.
And, Deb, just saying, not in a clinical mode yet, you really need to call it a day because your rantings are getting clinical with me. Your failure, bizarre, since it can be verified, to admit that the quotes I italicized are yours are moving you into the realm of the DSM big time.
Jeez, what’s with all the vitriolic attacks on Deb? I may not agree with everything she says, but it seems to me she’s not the one going overboard here.
She’s right about a couple of things (at least) in my view.
It’s dangerous to generalize about people suffering from depression, as their symptoms and actions can vary widely.
And there is little in common between a woman (or a man) who commits murder while suffering from a mental illness which prevents them from distinguishing between right and wrong, and a man (or woman) who attempts to murder a child as a way to cause suffering for someone they hate.
So they can define hate…yet lack accountability?
Syncro
Suicide is a sin and a crime. Murder is a crime and a sin.
What part of this is difficult to understand?
Many of us have had experience with severe depression; and didn’t kill anybody, ourselves or other persons. What part of *that* is difficult to understand?
“A spsde is a spade”.
– Syncro
No it’s not! 🙂
Me ND
know its knot.. spllurpp.
Syncro
From the Star link:
Though there were signs she was depressed, no one seemed to realize the pain the 30-year-old was living with — pain that would cause her to throw herself and her 2-year-old child from an overpass on to Highway 401.
None of the links, including this one, give any proof of this depression. The pain is a nice flourish since, to the best of my knowledge, there was no suicide note or explanation. All the interviewees say she seemed fine and gave no indication of the pain the Star mentions. Her mother says she was occasionally depressed; did she mean clinical depression or run-of-the-mill bummed out?
Some here have leaped to clinical depression as the source of Johnson’s actions. What is that based on?
It’s easier to grasp at a mental illness to explain such a monstrous act but there’s nothing in the media reports to back that up. And that, I think, is the point of Kate’s post – women are automatically presumed to be mentally ill if they kill their children and the men who do so are evil bastards. Maybe Johnson was just an evil bitch.