Investor's Business Daily on the question of Iraqis "stepping up to the plate" to defend themselves;
Iraqis — civilians, military and police — are risking their lives for their country every day, from the millions who proudly held up their purple fingers to the young police applicants who are murdered as they line up to serve their country. Then more line up in their place.Are the Arabs ready for democracy or are they doomed by an ingrained tribalism? We need only to look at Lebanon, where a multicultural democracy once flourished. Beirut was called the Paris of the Middle East until the country became a human shield for the PLO and then Hezbollah terrorists supported by Syria and Iran.
The Lebanese might have sustained their multicultural democracy had we not cut and run after Hezbollah killed 241 Marines in Beirut in 1983, deciding we could no longer afford to be Lebanon's security blanket. Sometimes democracies need a little help from their friends.
[...]
We've been Europe's security blanket for six decades. We are Japan's security blanket. We are South Korea's. It's been said that were it not for us, the French would be speaking German and the Germans would be speaking Russian. In 1938, the West decided it couldn't be Czechoslovakia's security blanket and sold out that country in Munich, Germany. The rest, as they say, is history.
One point missed in the article is that if Afghanistan had not been abandoned after the Russians left, 9-11 probably would not have happened. Who can predict what might have happened if the U.S. had stayed and helped Afghanistan recover.
Lee - if we cannot predict what 'might have happened if the US had stayed', then how can you logically inform us in the previous sentence that 'IF Afghanistan had not been abandoned...9/11 probably would not have happened". Well?
9/11 had little to do with Afghanistan and a great deal to do with the tension created in the ME political and economic infrastructure with the post-oil rise in population that was not accompanied by the abandonment of tribalist economics and politics - and a movement towards a civic mode.
The tension led to three movements; (1) the emergence of a desire for more political and economic power of the whole population; (2)the repression of this desire by religious and military force and an entrenchment of one tribe in power; and (3)the Al Qaeda movement of fascism and purist fundamentalism as an opposition to the corruption of the one tribe.
This emerged in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
I agree - the US cannot be the security blanket of the world. That was, originally, the role of the UN, but it has dissolved into an expensive irrelevant corruption. What is there to say when the new Human Rights Commission of the UN, is now voting that it will no longer critique a nation for its human rights violations. No, it will only critique 'human rights violations' without referring to the national gov't.
The US is moving back into an isolationist role; its post WWII role had been the spread of democracy and frankly, democracy is the key to change in the ME. But, since the favorite Friday night fun game is to Bash-America, then, why should they bother?
In the ME, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq are going to have to stand up to Iran, which is behind the insurgency in Iraq.
ya, I think the majority of Iraqis know this is a pivitol time in their nation.
an opportunity to take it back, regardless of any personal feelings for or against the american occupiers.
so they line up at the recruiting centres after the car bomb has detonated and proudly wave purple coloured fingers and take mental note of the comings and goings of suspicious strangers.
ET: lmao, i did not say that we cannot predict what would have happened. I asked who ( or if there was anyone) could predict........
Its a thought- provoking issue to me, i dont profess to have any answers. It just seems to me that the space that was vacated at that time was filled by the Taliban, which in turn led to safe haven for OBL, which in turn....... you get the drift.
Im sure that my thought processes are too simplistic, and i guess the IF ONLY game doesnt help, except to draw conclusions about what could happen if Iraq and Afghanistan are abandoned once again.
in my opinion, it is a very bizarre form of bigotry being practiced by the left...they just cannot see the forest for the trees on this issue...i can understand them spitting on me for standing up to comrade joe and company(they do have an affinity for communist/tinpot dictators)but to give almost unqualified support to the hamas/hezbo/taliban/alqaida crowd is simply mind-boggling...these islamofascist organizations stand for everything these moonbats oppose....and as long as these idiots are beating their drums, and chanting their chants, we will never be able to carry out effective military operations in the ME and save the millions and millions of people who do want us there....and to hope for other ME states to pick up the ball, well, good luck with that.....GO ARMY
Calling pre-PLO Lebanon a multicultural democracy is a bit of a stretch. Although it's more complex than a blog post can realistically articulate, the peace was maintained there by giving the Maronites a disproportionate amount of clout, and turning the other way as they used it. Thirty years ago, the Shia in Lebanon weren't fundamentalist terrorists, they were simply the country's underclass.
The author might have a point, but the example of Lebanon doesn't support it.
From what I have seen since Viet Nam the big question for an ally of the US is can you trust them to stay the course. Will they have the resolve and the political will to see Iraq through? Whether you agree or disagree with them being there I think the US has to look at what their allies think of them and not be so self absorbed. I never agreed with cretien on anything but not going into Iraq I did. My reason, lack of commitment and their overwhelming preoccupation with internal politics at it seems the exclusion of everything else. I keep getting the feeling they are setting themselves up for another disastrous Nam style retreat. I sincerely hope not as I agree with their intent but -----.
Is it just me or do others get the feeling that the powers to be are more concerned with collateral damage than they are in protecting our own troops at times?
Paris of ME, whine & cheese, scuttle Lebanon... WWII, France, whine & cheese, scuttle Europe... Quebec, whine & cheese, scuttle Canada... Kyoto, whine & cheese, scuttle the West's economy. Pattern here ??
And France wants to impose taxes on Canada for not falling for a Hoax called Kyoto !!
Don't forget SE Asia where the US and the West abandoned the cause of democracy and free enterprise in the middle of the war(s)....
On the other hand I can see why US taxpayers may get sick and tired of bankrolling the security of the rest of the damned world!
While the UN trough hogs talk in endless circles around every issue and the majority of it's members are non-democratic and non-contributing ( funds wise ) perpetual critics of the only nations that actually do pull their weight the US and allies are expected to put up with the constant abuse and BS yet pay the freight.
Shut down the UN.
"Security blanket" be damned! I've heard much too much of this moan from American conservatives. There are strong reasons of American self-interest for US involvement in Europe past and present, and involvement in the Middle East. As far as western Europe goes, would the US, the greatest mercantile power of all time, really have wanted Soviet submarine bases in Brittany? Soviet bomber forces at Abbeville? A big Soviet fleet in the Mediterranean? I have heard that in WWII Churchill got Roosevelt's undivided attention by saying that if Britain fell he could not guarantee the destruction of the British fleet; and that fleet, together with the Kriegsmarine, the French fleet, and the Italian navy, considerably outnumbered the US fleet. So much for idealism.
In the Middle East, it really is all about oil. They have it, we need a secure supply (Canada even more than the US because of our cold climate and long distances). Saddam Hussein lost his nerve in 1991 with the Saudi oilfields within his reach, and nothing but desert between his tank forces and them. Will the next mad dictator be so obliging or so craven?
John Lewis said "In the Middle East, it really is all about oil. They have it, we need a secure supply (Canada even more than the US because of our cold climate and long distances)."
Um, you know that Canada is an EXPORTER of Oil right?
And the rationalizing for abandonning Iraq begins.
Sorry your country is trashed guys but you only have yourselves to blame.
I do not think it unreasonable that after all these years that the Iraqi's be asked to provide their own security.
Training the average soldier takes only about 1.5 years. Much less time is required to train them to WW1 or WW2 standards. I can see the need for foreign advisors and specialized troops for command and control and special ops but the average grunt on the street in Iraq should have been an Iraqi about 2 years ago.
Freedom is never Free.
What happens if the US decides that not only its troops will leave Iraq, but also makes it illegal for any US citizen to work in Iraq or the ME. What if all corporations are told to leave Iraq and the mid east. That is the threat that should be given. No more oil imports from OPEC. Let american leftists see what they would have to do without if they get their way. Would the envirowackos decide to let the oil companies drill for american oil. These people seem to want their cake and eat it also. Sort of like Edwards and shopping at wal-mart.
When you have a tribal mentality, coupled with a violence advocating religion and then you add modern weapons, you've got the middle east.
Do you really believe that the US is a 'security blanket' for Iraq?.
Bush moves into Iraq to prove to his daddy that he can do better, giving ever shifting bogus reasons to the American people for the invasion. After completely screwing up the country and being unable to find victory or a way of getting out horourably, he blames the Iraqis and his domestic political opponents, who now have no way of ending this honourably either.
Bush's (and the US's) actions have been atrociuos and I find it incedible that a cross section of people support his policies with such blind faith and lemming-like stupidity.
btw- I also find it hard to believe that such a large group could actually believe that there is no hood-winkery involved in a son following his father into the presidency, particularily when it is a family of super-rich monopolists that have everything to gain from controlling the main helm of world economics, energy and war.
It's about time we saw the American dream flourish with a self made man who worked his way up and graduated from a regular school and knows what it's like to have to feed family and wipe his own ass.
Why is there such a blind following and support for these people, I just don't understand it
[quote]I also find it hard to believe that such a large group could actually believe that there is no hood-winkery involved in a son following his father into the presidency, particularily when it is a family of super-rich monopolists that have everything to gain from controlling the main helm of world economics, energy and war.[/quote]
Break out your tin-foil beanies everyone, I smell a conspiracy theorist!
The question is:
If you could have predicted the fratricide now happening in Iraq, would you have supported the war? After about 7-8 books on the subject (including 4 by Bat Ye'or) in the last year or so, I'm starting to feel that the whole project of installing democracy and nation building -- as desirable as it is -- was hopelessly naive; that if I knew then what I know now, I would not have supported the war. Blush.
Robert Spencer, author and host of jihadwatch website (go there ... often!), claims that had Bush and team sought the advice of experts on Islam the democracy/nation-building project would not have been attempted -- that the fratricide was 100% predictable (jihadwatch is on record with that opinion from the outset). Perhaps our own George Jonas was right: that the enterprise should have ended with the smashing of the Baathist regime and the downfall of Saddam and a threat of returning should it be resurrected.
I find myself reluctantly agreeing with Jose: that this "we can't be your security blanket" is just a new and shameful meme to cover the extreme incompetence of the Bush team, who it turns out, didn't have the faintest clue what they were doing. For up to the minute proof, just look at the shocking incompetence of Condi Rice. Blush.
I don't like these new memes -- nor the sad and despicable excuse-making of the retreating star neo-cons who are arguing, "if only you listened to how we ..... blah, blah, blah". Blush.
Man, it hurts to find myself saying that! Blush.
Bush, the isolationist turned nation-builder by 9/11, is a tragedy of Shakespearean proportions.
Sorry, This is not the US as a security blanket for Iraq at all.
This is the US deciding to *pull punches* one last time and open the floodgates of fudamentalist Islamofascism on the world.
This is the US midterm Dems undermining the Bush Pubs resolve to support the loyal *purple*, the loyal Kurds and the unaligned Sunni in surrounding countries.
This is the US giving free reign to Muqtada and his Blackshirts to ethnic clense [lance the necks of], the Sunni from Iraq.
This is the US giving Hizbullah, [ Iran*s occupation forces], incentive to destroy Israel.
The Bush team hopes to be able to win the next election. [ very doubtful].
The Bush team hopes to avoid an Iranian oil crunch likely to destroy the economy.
That would have been far less likely had lobbyists not surpressed the Electric Vehicle industry in 1993. = TG
me no dhimmi - Your claim is that 'fratricide was 100% predictable', which leads you to claim that democracy ought not to have been attempted. My view is that you are completely wrong.
You are essentially saying that these people should be left 'tribal' because...well, because why? Is tribalism innate, ie, genetic? No. Tribalism is a sociopolitical/economic mode suited for a no-growth non-industrial sustenance economy. With the oil-based industrialization of the ME, the fact that tribalism had remained in place, by military and religious dictatorship, meant that fascism emerged as a response - and moved outside. What should be done? Leave the situation to..do what? Increase fascism?
There is no choice. The ME population had grown beyond the structural capacity of tribalism; it has to change. Since it cannot change 'from inside' as did the West in 1200-1600, then, the change must be enabled from the outside. There is no choice.
The fact that fratricide emerges because the only mode of organization was tribalism, and a tribalism kept in check by ensuring that each and every tribe hated each other - doesn't mean that these people should be left to rot in tribalism. It means that the period moving from tribalism to a civic nation is not easy; it takes time; it isn't a mechanical 'flip the light switch' action.
To do otherwise would be akin to standing back and watching Hitler conquer all of Europe, or the Soviet Union conquer Europe. There is no choice.
You, in your wisdom, claim that Dr. Rice is 'shockingly incompetent'. Could you explain?
Sometimes I wonder if people ever read the links.Then, I wonder if they can even read.
Sigh.
Well, you know, it's not without a sense of irony that I view many of the posts on this thread.
If the US had had the cooperation of Canada, France, Germany, and other industrialized nations from the outset, different sets of circumstances would prevail.
I keep seeing people yelling about the US-this and the US-that, and I keep wondering where the hell were all these other countries when we were trying to put together a coalition of not only military partners, but also moral arbiters signing onto the justification of this cause.
Canada could have been with the US at the UN and been a support and advocate for strong military action. Canada could have used its international reputation to help sell this proposition to the international community.
In the US we may be burdened by the idea of leading the team, but the team has proven to be a very unruly, querilous and uncooperative group of partners.
Anyway, essentially what you see going on in the US mid-terms is conservatives spanking the Republican Party. You also have to realize that the majority party almost always loses seats in mid-term elections during a president's second term. This is not surprising, since basically all politicians fall short of the idea, and voters have had reason to become disgruntled no matter who the president might be.
You will also notice that Blue Dog Democrats (conservative Democrats) were the big winners this time. And there are times when a conservative Democrat is more conservative than a moderate Republican. None of these guys ran on a cut-and-run strategy.
You will notice that Mrs. Pelosi just used up a lot of her political capital in a bid to place another liberal as the majority leader in the House. The Democratic House overwhelmingly voted against her and put in a Blue Dog Democrat instead. There is still reason to hope that some strategy can be imposed that can lead to a desirable outcome. One idea being floated around is 20,000 additional troops in Baghdad itself to help crush the militias.
What America needs from Canada and from other NATO nations is what we needed going in. We need you guys to be there lobbying us to do the right thing through the offices of your prime ministers.
We need you guys to be putting pressure onto our officials and letting them know that Canada and other countries are right there with military and material support.
One gets puzzled at this endless conversation of America should have done this and American should have done that. Where were you guys?
I"m always puzzled, you know, by the argument that democracy is impossible in the ME. If this is truly the case, then we ought to be slamming shut the doors of immigration to all of these countries. By default, they must be genetically and culturally incapable of functioning in a peaceful and free society.
Movie, cirra 1989.
Communism/socialism fails. The Berlin Wall falls. The Left leaning countries of the world are mad as hell. Democracy and Freedom and Capitalism has won. The Left just will not accept it and they tell Britan/Austrailia/US,maybe Canada (BAUC) to mind their own business and stay at home. BAUC complies.
In 1990 Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. US president Bush SENIOR and BAUC comply and stay at home. With ME oil supplies in doubt, the greens of BAUC relent and new oil supplies are quickly brought on stream. By the year 2000, Iraq has finished develping WMD. It now controls Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE. France says it is OK. Annan says tsk,tsk. BAUC's oil supply is secure and so stays out of the ME conflict. Iran falls to Iraq. Europe is getting worried and asks BAUC for help. The US says "kiss my ass".
Muslims in Europe covertely undermine France's Military and Chirac surrenders in 2004. The UN promotes Diplomatic status for Eurabia. Iraq's population is entirely Sunni. BAUC is protected from Saddam's nuclear threat by it's Missle Defence System, known as Reagan's Stars. With Muslims in control, Eurabia becomes just another Islamic country and collapses economically. ME oil is worthless as BAUC has it's own supply. The population of Oilberta reaches 15 million in 2005.
In 2006 The Nation of Eurabia bans elections, Greenpeace, protest marches, SSM, bikinis, Sundays, German Beer Halls, French wine, cheese, fish and chips, fuel efficient cars, activists of any kind, women in public, Kyoto, the UN. Annan says tsk,tsk. There is a shortage of black cloth.
Kate "I"m always puzzled, you know, by the argument that democracy is impossible in the ME"
People have different ideas on how to promote the spread of democracy.
Personaly I'm very skeptical that the war in Iraq is about spreading democracy. The american's tried to game the elections for their man (which backfired) and they seem keen to ditch the whole notion of democracy in favour of "stability". First it was about WMD, scratch that it's about democracy, no wait scratch that now it's about "stability". The PR consultant who introduced Curveball to Judy Plaime must be racking up a lot of billable hours.
ET - "...the change must be enabled from the outside."
All due respect to a colleague, but you must be joking! Concepts like national sovereignty mean anything to you? To cure that which you assert to be the problem would be a multi-generation effort. I don't necessarily object to empire, but you are effectively asking to rewind the clock a couple centuries. No western nation retains the mindset.
Kate - don't get wobbly on us now. It is an iron tenet of conservative faith that we ARE genetically "incapable of functioning in a peaceful and free society". It's the cultural part that makes it work.
Kate: If the "not reading the link" remark was meant for me, mea culpa, I jumped to conclusions based on your headline and took it as a neo con excuse. I've now read it. Sorry about that.
But read this sentence!
"But those who ask whether we can or should stop Iraqis from killing themselves forget that we're in this to stop others from killing us and using Iraq as a base camp from which to do it."
"Using Iraq as a base camp"!!!??? I don't remember that as a stated goal of the project. I don't think the brave Iraqis would be too pleased by that profoundly cynical statement.
Yes, the argument that "democracy is impossible in the ME" is indeed puzzling given that Israel has had one since 1948. It's more accurate to say that democracy is incompatible with fundamentalist Islam, which is in the ascendant everywhere in the Muslim world.
As we should all know now, Islam has not been "hijacked by a small band of extremists". All four schools of Islamic jurisprudence actively support jihad (and not the internal struggle one either!). We need only look at Pakistan's path from being a securlar nation in 1947 to a full-bore Islamic state with Sharia law now.
I think it's not an exaggeration to say that democracy is actually considered to be a blasphemy in the islamic world, i.e., the notion of men replacing Allah's law. I now feel there's zero hope for democracy until there's a Islamic reformation of some kind.
ET: Condi (let's drop the Dr) Rice recently stated that 70% of "Palestinians" want to live in peace in a side-by-side state, and she likened their "struggle" with her 60s civil rights movement experiences. If she's sincere about that statement, she is NUTS and clearly unqualified to be dashing about the world trying to solve its problems. Does she not understand the pure nazi ideology that runs 24/7 through that death cult "society"; has she never flipped though the school textbooks or watched TV there?. I do have great admiration for her as a person, nevertheless.
As to installing democracy in a truly alien environment -- the irony is that our modern PC democracies are simply unable to execute the level of brutality necessary to bring it into being.
I had never mean to suggest that I think the US should cut and run!
Break out your tin-foil beanies everyone, I smell a conspiracy theorist!
Posted by: Zip at November 17, 2006 03:29 PM "
uh zip, out of 300,000,000 population you dont find it just a weeeeee tad peculiar the succession goes to..... (drum roll) the first born son?
Posted by: qwerty at November 17, 2006 10:21 PM
"uh zip, out of 300,000,000 population you dont find it just a weeeeee tad peculiar the succession goes to..... (drum roll) the first born son?"
Yeah, you must be right, all those Americans casting votes must have been a ruse to throw me off the scent... What was I thinking?!?!??!?
I mean it's not like it was the first time in 200+ years that it happened... Oh wait, it was!
I hate conspiracy theorists.
"The biggest conspiracy is that there is no conspiracy, no one gives a shit if you live or die. There, feel better?" Denis Miller
Sorry for the profanity Kate. ;-)
I have always wondered what the results of this invasion would have been if Turkey had not backed out at the last minute after giving permission to use its space. Also wonder the results if the msm had used the word liberators instead of occupiers. Didn't Turkey have an election during this time, and the new guys said no, same with Spain.