It's Not The Data That I Find Disturbing

Kate needs some "I Scream" with that pie!

True, he should have used bar graphs. Vertical ones. Those couldn't possibly be interpreted as phallic. Not even a little bit. :P

Kate - I presume you are being sarcastic re the 'pie charts' - otherwise known as a circle graph/chart - which is used to illustrate how one variable is broken into parts, as opposed to a bar graph - which makes comparisons over time or between variables, or a scatterplot, or a linear correlation or...

But what is really relevant (apart from the apple pie) is that women tend to cluster in the soft academic zones, which in this era of postmodernism, rest on subjective personal emotional opinions rather than factual observations. So, it's sociology, women's studies, English, drama, and so on. The 'hard sciences', which aren't interested in conclusions based on subjective personal opinions, see a much smaller percentage of women.

The fact that now, you can get a university degree, without learning a thing, without even learning how to critique opinions, and merely articulating your own opinions or, those subjective opinions of the professor - is a sad state of affairs.

I wonder if the educational choices of women affect their long term earning potential? Naaahhh, it's the sexist society and the glass ceiling. What was I thinking ......

My daughter attended the UofS for what seemed like half a lifetime only to come away with a BA in Sociology. She was rightly proud of her accomplishment however was left with a blank stare when I asked her who would hire her. I then informed her that she was going to go to a school and get more education so that she could actually become employable. What school? SIAST -the Business course. Two years of that and she was immediately hired by the CIBC.

They might very well have hired her without the BA in Sociology. I agree that some university degrees are a complete waste of time and money. My daughter observed to me at the end of the Business course that she had never had to work so hard as she did on that Business course.

HAHAHAHAHA

Has to be tongue in cheek Kate; has to be! It isn't that the boys are too badly off but it is true that the "system" seems to focus on "engineering outcomes" which is just not what school is about.

Useless formal education is part and parcel of the so-called benefits of extending universal education to post secondary education. As a different Bob mentions, most grads need a community college to assist them in obtaining a job to pay back their student loans. I am not degrading degrees but I have never associated one with a education.

There was a time that a educated personal was well read, knew 2 or 3 languages and able to critique ideas or form an argument, despite not having been to college.

I can't tell you how many MBA's or Graduate degreed individuals I have had to mentor and counsel on the job in the essential basics of communication [written and verbal], structured analysis and the presentation of fact based recommendations.

I'm still giggling too!!

Let's try for a good analogy, shall we?

Our present higher education system is like a puppy mill...

It's midterm time, I'm marking exams...and I give our society another generation on its present course before self-destruction. And I teach the non-crap stuff!

Interestingly, I find the women in my classes to be over-represented (statistically speaking) at the upper end of the mark distribution...for the first few years. By graduation, this effect appears to vanish. Oddly, it appears to correlate with studying.

The pie charts are not reflective of any innate superiority of men nor are they reflective of any innate inferiority of women. What they do reflect is our unique differences. I will leave it to both the soft and the hard sciences to try to quantify the unquantifiable.

"Vive la Difference!"

Speaking as one who had taught math at NYU (the "one math class you'll have to take entire time in college" for those in crap majors), you start to realize that the whole college accreditation biz is a sham, as it's based only on inputs, not outputs.

Just like my classes. There was nobody watching me to make sure I actually stuck to the syllabus, there was no standard final exam so that they could tell I actually taught (and they learned) what was supposed to be taught. I was in charge of the whole schmear. As long as none of the students complained to anybody, we were all free and clear. They were never expected to have to use math in their crap majors, so who cared?

Take a deep breath Kate. Belimbo had no problem with baking a bigger economic 'pie', and she is being held as the epitomy of womankind. If it is good enough for Belindog it should be good enough for all women!

Belomi baked a bigger AMERICAN PIE.

A huge subject. In my medical practice I found that the young women of today to be more "grounded" than the young men, so perhaps they simply are better at planning for the future and see the importance of further education. Because they are young, they may not be making "practical" choices.
I don't see a problem with courses like psychology, etc other than the fact that these are the courses taught, as a rule, by the secular progressives. My son is an engineer and I wonder if he has ever voted (hates all politicians). Although he is probably rational in his assessment, his attitude hardly helps the development of a "just" society----- it is being left to the "crap" group and their teachers.
I think that with proper analysis we would find that the females ARE taking over ALL post secondary education. When I graduated in Medicine 40 years ago there were 3 females in a class of 55 grads. Now most medical classes have more than 50% female. Even in the Engineering classes, there is a significant increase in female grads over the years (in spite of a supposed deficiency in spacial relationships).

Ottawa, we've got a problem.

I didn't read any Margaret Mead, but I think it was she who pointed out that in order for young, testosterone-laden males not to run violently amok, they have to have some very useful things to do: like hunt, fish, wage war, be busy with a career, and/or be responsible for a brood of whelps, etc.

Little wonder we've got so many male deviants in society today, seeing as they're not busy doing any of these things. They've got way too much time on their hands and too much of their testosterone-driven energy is being misplaced in drunkenness, drugs, violent video games, and worse.

Since the feminists insisted that girls were getting the rough end of the deal as far as higher education and successful careers outside the home were concerned--and actively discouraged girls from even considering motherhood as an acceptable and honourable vocation--females have been increasingly getting a leg-up society's ladder, while males have been kicked in the teeth.

I feel indignant about how our young men are being treated in our feminist-driven society, especially in the educational system. Everything has been feminized, to the extent that boys are absolutely disallowed from being boys. No rough housing, no punching out the bully, and very little help in schools which can see, quite clearly, how listless, sullen, and angry many boys are, how academically challenged and at risk they are, and how misdirected a great deal of their energy has become: Too many of them are preoccupied with violent and action-packed video games, violent sports, porn, etc. and no one, least of all their parents or teachers or educational administrators, seems to have a clue about what to do with them.

Since girls have been in the ascendency, it's as though our boys have been thrown to the dogs. I'm grateful I have daughters.

Unless we begin to take seriously the underachievement of our male-children and address how to encourage them not to drop out of school at the high rates they are now, we're going to have a very scary public square to deal with: Clockwork Orange, anyone? This runaway train is speeding down the track much faster than many of us think.

the thing about women attending post secondary as the hunting grounds for high paid husbands is true.

my wife roomed with medical majors, all women and they all concurred. they saw the stunning bubble heads their male collegues showed up with at the social functions. and laughed about the 'topics' on 'conversation' when I would show up at the apt later. I laughed with them because they all knew me and my fiancee werent doing it that way. they all graduated by the way, my wife with honours computer science.

I took up the challenge and did the same thing over a decade later.

With the high cost of a university degree, and most getting them are in Mc jobs, perhaps it is time to cancell all govt loans for education. Then, only those wanting usable degrees would go. I am tired of hearing of the debt load of students who are taking fluff courses and degrees. What about the debt load of those starting a business, or going into farming etc. Seems all these students do these days is riot and protest. 30 yrs ago, university was something to aim for and parents worked and saved for same. Parents still have the same mindset, and it has to be changed. Of course there will always be the gals who are looking for someone they think will be famous, so they can expose an affair years later and make a fortune off some tell all book.

The analysis is deeply flawed because he withheld a crucial piece of information, namely the proportion of male to female students in the undergrad and grad schools he was analyzing.

Without that information, % of degrees conveys absolutely no useful information.

I agree whole heartedly with Mary.Some of these students live at home,their parents pay their food and lodging, they take a loan for a fluff course and are expected to pay it back!Horrors!Maybe they should start a business or buy a farm as there are lots for sale.

RobinB - There are more female students than male students in university, averaged over all faculties.

Hello Kate:
I finally get the 'pie charts comment' I hope.
Belinda would not approve. Her share of the pie would only get bigger.
G

O!
I goofed.
Belinda did not finish university.
She only ran Magna?
G

Kate, it is not the use of pie charts that you object to, or the facts, I suspect.

It is the association of the adjective "crap" with "humanity" degrees.

As an engineer, myself, I am certainly willing to re-engage in this age-old university argument. But his objective evidence of starting salary is very compelling.

I think if they were using something to P.O. women they would make a stack of plates or compare sizes of laundry baskets.

Ontario pays females $1,000 to take Engineering. OK, weird but .... The thing is we need more male teachers a lot more than we need more female engineers: There's no money going there, helping males would be illegal and immoral.

The whole system is screwed up.

Yeah. Instead of beating around the bush--I mean, beating the lemon pie filling--the misogynists with the data should just have said it in plain English:

Our boys are being thrown to the dogs...

Kate--thanks for ruining my morning by pointing me in the direction of that smug, self-indulgent and fundamentally illogical drivel.

Read Climbing Parnassus - A New Apologia for Greek and Latin by Tracy Lee Simmons or a decent biography of CS Lewis to find out what the old Oxford Classical cirricula looked like.

The humanities weanies you disparage wouldn't even get in and the science and engineering folks would be treading water like they were going down in the Poseidon Adventure.

http://www.oxfordtoday.ox.ac.uk/2002-03/v15n2/04.shtml

If it weren't for chicks sleeping their way to the top, there would even be a stronger correlation ;-)

How come they're "misogynist" instead of "Andronist" (as a counterpart to "Feminist"?

mojo: Do you mean androgynous? That means (someone) "not distinguishably male or female" (The Canadian Oxford Dictionary).

Misogynists tend to see females only in terms of their duties in the kitchen: I don't think "androgynists" (is there such a creature?) would have an opinion about that, one way or the other.

Its probably not a great idea to leave all the thinking about what it means to be human(humanities) to the liberal secularists. That's where Canada is today. That's who runs the public schools.

There is a need in our society for truly educated people. Not just number crunchers and money makers. People who have a broad (by classical standards)understanding of the world and are well equipped to express themselves are sorely lacking in Canadian society. We are left with 'lefties' running the media, education, and civil service.
This is not to say that a person can be well educated by attending the average Canadian university and receiving an arts degree. After (eons) of homeschooling, I trust my children to a very few number of schools, and can afford even fewer. A private Catholic (obedient) college for at least the first year, provides them with a window into the world that no secular university cares to provide. So far, they agree and have been successful. When they start families they will always be able to provide for them, because they have the tools (not just the mechanics of a specific job.) Their concern about money is relagated to an appropriate concern to obtain WHAT THEY NEED.

Not the way most Canadians are thinking about higher education, I agree. But my kids (6boys,2 girls) are receiving an education that helps them be fully alive HUMAN BEINGS, not just cogs of productivity for an unnamed purpose. Humans need to BE HUMAN to be happy, and that includes a lifetime of learning .

(Of course an engineer can also be educated. Its just less likely to happen if he's convinced his goal is a job.)

Round the Block: I said "andronist" and I meant "andronist" - as a direct counterpart to "feminist"

Yeah, I know CanOx doesn't have it. I made it up.

It's ok, though - I'm American. We're allowed to invent words as needed.

Since it doesn't apply to me (I have a MSc in Computer Science), this isn't really a problem.
Sorry.
That was the self-centered old bat in me talking.
Besides, the guy's in economics. What does he know about real degrees? It's not like he has one.