The Last Word On Canadian Identity

When our national identity consists mostly of "But We're Not Americans!" methinks we doth protest too much. It is a sad state of affairs.

*sigh*

Will we ever grow the f**k up?

Thanks Kate for giving me a chance to ask one important question. I'm writing from Yuma Az. Canadians generaly have not had the opportunity to define themselves with any sort of reasoned discussion.
Indeed, we have had the idiots like parrish and fry taking up the airways and newspapers. Our liberal and ndp politicians have been promoting "hate America" for years.
I read with interest the varied remarks of the recognition of Quebec.
To those critics I ask a simple question. Would we like to have a declaration defending the culture we had in the West from the ravages and unfairness of Trudeau's multiculturalism. Almost like defending both English and French Canada. I have heard a lot of grumbling in every Western Province about the fear of loosing our culture to Pierre's folly. Please don't think I support racism, because I do not. I do however defend a Canadian culture more threatened by Trudeau's manipulation than by America.
If folks in the west want their culture defended then why not Quebecers?
For the many snowbirds like myself, we are treated with respect and dignity down here in the sunbelt. I do not see many differences in the way we act, talk or think.
One difference I do see is that Americans do take their "Liberty" much more seriously than Canadians.We tend to want the government to step in on every issue.
The old cliche," look after me from the cradle to the grave, fits Canadians more than it does Americans.
In the end I have to say Canadians and Americans are both good people.

As my Pop once told me "Learn the words to America the Beautiful".

While Quebec continues to piss and moan with various and sundry operatives in the political class kissing ass the real threat to Canadian unity lies semi-dormant in Alberta.

If I read the writing on the wall correctly central Canada will soon revert to the party of crooks and candyasses. What will follow is going to make the NEP look like a juniour high prank.

Unlike the petulant population of Quebec we in Alberta will bust a move. No threats, no grandstanding, just action. Check out the political history of this province.

The upside is that I won't need a passport to go to Vegas and we'll finally bury this two solitudes bullshit.

Oh yea...and the last cheque you crooked bastards got was the LAST cheque.

Syncro

I agree with melwilde.

Basically, as far as I've been able to tell, we think alike, talk alike, and act alike.

Since I've been posting here I always avail myself of the opportunity to chat up Canadians when I meet them (admittedly, not too often). Having been schooled on the idea that there are these "differences", I try to see if I can spot them.

I've never spotted any. This whole deal about our "differences" is a big mystery to Americans. We look at Canadians and see people who could easily be our brothers, sister, aunts, uncles, etc.

Whatever happens with Quebec, I hope that it is in the direction of being able to put to rest tensions that ensue from this idea that we are somehow inherently "different."

The CPR (Sir John A. MacDonald was Prime Minister) gave the task of building the longest railway in the world to

a dynamic American engineer,

Cornelius Van Horne. (1882)

Van Horne was a brilliant organizer. ...
3w.scripophily.net/caparacoca19.html

If Alberta goes, Albertans must buy MacDonald a bottle of Southern Comfort and pour it on his grave (permission given to drink the bottle first); second choice, Old Turkey, same grave. ...-

For your consideration:
I invite you to read the following excerpt from a lecture delivered by Australian writer David Malouf (LaFontaine-Baldwin Symposium 2004 Lecture), available at:
http://tinyurl.com/yjnvq4

«Societies are improvisatory affairs, made from moment to moment and by many hands: they are of their very nature open and unfinished. The question is whether that formal thing we call a nation can be open and improvisatory in the same way. It’s a question, it seems to me, that Australia and Canada have been
exploring for most of their lives as nations, and given our very different conditions and history, in something like the same way. ....
It takes a particular temper in a people, a particular feeling for order, and flexibility or looseness, to make a successful federation; a willingness to forego the centering of authority in a single place to a recognition that there may, without the whole enterprise flying apart, be room for several centres in dialogue but also in argument with one another.»

Gabby in QC
Neither a pure laine nor a tête carrée

If Quebec ever separates, I wouldn't agree with that thesis. But right now, your statement is self-evident.

Eh!

A friend, a Det/Sgt policeman in Ontario, recently returned from leading a course in Australia and remarked how surprised he was at how much more the Aussies are like 'us' than the Americans!

It could be a case of cultural lag, of course, for contemporary Canadians seemed to have culturally absorbed most of what is the worst in American culture (their pop food, celebrities, movies, sitcoms, et al) instead of their general devotion to the principles of individual liberty and duty as well as to their cherished history and symbols. Exceptions granted.

When I enlisted in the infantry in 1964, there wasn't much hand-wringing over our identity except to occasionally note our latent, and exaggerated, superiority to our American friends in the field as well as deportment. Our ranks swelled as well as our pride in the Dominion that so distinguished itself at war and as a middle power. There seemed to be a passion for what Canada was because of what it DID and WHY and that was obvious in every school, church, community centre and hockey rinks where even the Queen, surrounded by flags, was visible high above the net.

That was 'Old Canada' traded in for the current 'New Canada' that, largely bereft of its cultural foundation, has left so-called 'English' Canadians of this generation to seek out their identities through the present tense and the relentless saturation of pop culture.

A 'people' historically have songs to sing. The English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, French, Jamaicans, and yes les Canadiens in Québec. We used to sing some songs, including the now-banned 'Maple Leaf Forever' hopelessly re-worded by the CBC contest winner into some kind of pan-world rubbish.
Many young Canadians don't know the words to their National Anthem let alone sing it.
It would seem the tune most sung by 'Canadians' is 'We will, we will rock you' by Queen (not Elizabeth II).

From my experience living in America for several years, Americans aren't nearly as much like us at all as much as we think we're like them.

In other words, your point is that Canada has no identity, because its people are more like Americans than they are like themselves. So what's the point, I take it. Cute, Kate. Real cute.

Australia is what you get when you cross an Englishman with a Mexican.

My identify is that of a Newfoundlander. My kids will identify themselves as being Newfoundlanders too. Even though they are being raised in Alberta they will be sent home yearly to be instructed in common sense and how to do something for yourself (you can hold your ignorant comments, we all don't rely on the dole, never did and never will). I don't need no document to say that NFLD is a nation, who cares, I know who i am and where i came from. The British should have wiped the last vesitges of France off the continent while they were at it.

When, not if, Alberta separates they can reap the benefits of not having Ottawa doling out the unfair portion of the benefits to Quebec. Alberta then should slap high tariffs on all rail and truck shipments to ports in BC by Sask and MB to blackmail them into joining the Republic of Alberta. Although they won't need a port because i am sure the Americans will gladly offer any on their West Coast.

Pidd's bang on. What ever happened to 'ready, aye ready' and the Great Dominion?

It's not a "point". It's an observation. Tell me who has more in common - Albertans and Montanans or Albertans and Ontarians? Manitobans and Minnesotans or Manitobans and Quebecers? British Columbians and Washingtonians or British Columbians and Newfoundlanders?

Our natural kinships and shared experiences in North America flow north-south, not east-west. That's a product of shared geography, history and navigation routes. It's not political. It's organic.

And don't confuse popular western culture as "American culture". Pop culture is a product of technology, leisure time and affluence, not national identity.

"Our natural kinships and shared experiences in North America flow north-south, not east-west...It's not political. It's organic"

Very true.
Which should lead us to ask: Would it be better for us to work within this reality? To make our "natural kinships" political as well as organic?

*gasp* How dare someone suggest such a thing?

;)

bellyache all you want bloggers, the long standing fact is Quebecers have very successfully defended their culture and language. the quiet revolution WORKED. the first thing they had to do was work around the fact english canada dominated their commerce and the government was in bed with the catholic church via structures like the education system. and it fit the agenda of THAT arrangement to support the status quo, ie domination of quebec by english canada.

so whining about dirty tricks and subterfuge and slyness and propaganda and outright manipulation and lies .... makes their tactics all the more identical to every major pol. party that has ever had power in Canada.

look at the cable stations, satellite feed and magazine racks at the newspaper booth. > 90% AMERICAN content.

Quebecers on the other hand appear to be very secure with their broadcast and print media and political position. they have learned to play on english canada fears of separation by using blackmail time and again; having their cake and eat it too.

instead of whining about how 'unfair' it is we should learn from them, but that involves work and sacrifice and THAT doesnt happen because english canada cultural identity is a miniscule fraction of what theirs is to quebecers.

Melwilde,

Agreed. Americans are generally the most fun and the most generous.

Syncrodox, on the other hand; Thank you so much for working nights and depositing all that crude under Alberta.

It*s not nice to be too selfish with it though.

That*s not the main problem however.

Breaking up Canada for any reason is not in the cards. Ever heard of divided we fall?

Your protest is about an unfair sharing of the wealth. Hey, that*s just a tiny injustice that passes with time.

My younger sister, [ the cute one], often got unfair favour in the family. It was understood. no reason to leave home in a huff.

Get over it. = TG

PS: I*m in B.C. by the way.

The identity works North-South rather than East-West. An Albertan has more in common with Montana than with Newfoundland. Same with BC/Washington, Manitoba/Minnesota, etc.

Identity is defined by region, not political borders.

There simply is no such thing as an "english Canada" cultural identity for us to work for (at least anymore - there may have been once).

As mentioned above, our cultural identity is regional - provincial at best. There may be some vague feelings of belonging to a larger whole, but realistically there is nothing else (except perhaps some shared self-loathing on how bad & imperialistic we were/are).

English Canada is not some monolithic culture to be compared/contrasted to french Canada, but rather we are a country made up of many sub-cultures (Quebequers, Albertans, BCers, Newfies, etc).

Quite correct Kate.

As history would have it:

The 1666 census of New France was conducted by France's intendant, Jean Talon, in the winter of 1665-1666. It showed a population of 3215 habitants in New France, many more than there had been only a few decades earlier. But the census showed a great difference in the number of men (2034) and women (1181). As a result, and hoping to make the colony the centre of France's colonial empire, Louis XIV decided to dispatch more than 700 single women, aged between 15 and 30 (known as les filles du roi) to New France.

Thus Canada was founded on 'joi de vivre' in the boudoir!!

We can thank Louis XIV!

Sex in the frontier, it wasn't always about the beaver pelts in the fur trade. How do you stay warm in a winter climate?

Even the Prime Minister says he has never been accused of 'seducing his wife'! Romance; its the CANADIAN WAY!!

Who needs porn, magazines, and LIEberal strippers, when you can have a 3 day power outage with your wife in Greater Vancouver.

Hey, that ought to put a dent into Canada's plummeting birthrate. Now I'm thinking, maybe we should have planned power outages!

There is something to said for wine and candlelight in cabins.

Cheers

The time may be fast approaching when Canadians generally should think seriously about becoming the 51st through 63th states (I'm excluding Quebec, but including the territories ) in a strengthened and enlarged United States of America.

If we were to do this, I propose that some or all the Mexican states join at the same time.

I tell 'ya, I'll develop a taste for refried beans if I can be done with the self-loathing, multi-cultural, cheeze-eating surrender monkeys with which we are currently in bed (and I used to hitch hike to Montreal for St. Hubert chicken and discos, jeeze!).

...round round we go.

It is mildly amusing reading the posts here and the previous thread on Quebec as a nation.

*sigh*

Alberta like Quebec can't seperate or go it alone. Difference is Quebec knows how to play the game, we on the other hand as Albertans just know how to whine.

Reality bites. But hey, that's why we got these blogs, to dream on.

Wretchard sees the different samenesses in the Canadians and the Ammuricans and the English and the Ozers and ...

Wretchard is not an anglosphere.

So for all you crised by identity, here's..... Wretchard:

And Now for the Canadians

The posted YouTube video of Beccy Cole doing "Poster Girl" in support of Australians in Iraq generated email from a Canadian reader who has asked me to post Terry Kelly's A Pittance in Time. It is below the "Read More" button. It is endlessly fascinating task to puzzle over the subtle atmospheric differences in Anglosphere; and there's probably some academic embarked on it now. But in the end it is a futile effort. There's too much that is different and too much that is the same. So for the Canadians out there, here's Terry Kelly. ...-
3w.fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com

Kate: Our natural kinships and shared experiences in North America flow north-south, not east-west. That's a product of shared geography, history and navigation routes. It's not political. It's organic.

True, except that a similar argument could be made about the US. If it's true that Albertans and Montanans have more in common than Albertans and Ontarians, then it's also likely true that Montanans and Albertans have more in common than Montanans and, say, Massachusettsians. Likewise, Washingtonians and British Columbians versus Washingtonians and Texans. If you're claiming that cross-border regional similarities is enough to argue against the existence of a strong and unified Canadian identity, then a similar case could be made against the existence of a strong and unified US identity (particularly in these bipartisan days of red and blue states).

Everybody is suggesting we will have some choice in joining America. Bet we don't. The next time a Democrat gets elected to the White House, wouldn't it make sense for him (or her) to assimilate the dear old northern neighbor, gaining a whole bunch of leftward leaning votes, thus cementing the power of the Blue party for a good long time?

BTW two of my grandparents were born in the US, so for me, it would be like coming home!

Regarding Alberta separation, it is way too simplistic to reduce the sentiment down to selfishness. While financial issues may cause the spark, it is not the root of the problem.

The basic problem is not with taxation, but with representation - that sound's familiar, eh :). Because of the power and functions of our current, centralized, federal government many of the decisions it makes impact the day to day lives of Albertans. However, Albertans have no effective voice in these decisions - it just makes sense that decisions that negatively impact our lives (including our pocketbooks) resonate more than others.

Many of the people who support the concept of separation believe that the flaws in confederation can be fixed from a technical perspective. One example of a potential fix is the triple E senate reform idea brought forward by the Reform party. However, the realistic view is the power base in central Canada is in a position to ensure such reforms never happen as it would reduce their power. That's not to say everyone has abandoned perusing these reforms, just that those who choose separatism believe the reforms are not possible.

The financial state of Alberta may give us the means to separate but it does not provide the motivation. Separation would in effect bring the power of government closer to the people - giving them the voice they simply do not have today.

"True, except that a similar argument could be made about the US."

Of course! They just don't waste their lives trying to convince each other they have an "identity", all the while sniffing at the neighbors for "garish displays of patriotism".

There is friction at the US - Mexican border.

There is friction at the Canada-US border.

You may recall some friction on the North Israeli border.

Some people are bored with peace and want more borders in Canada.

Meanwhile the Genie is crawling out of the brass teapot in Iran.

Boredome may leave soon and we*ll be too busy to think about more borders. = TG

Frank Hilliard:

Maybe the Yanks wouldn't want another 15 million lefties added to their voter base. Most of "vote-rich Ontario" would vote Dem, eh?

One of the interesting epiphanies I got from Bruce Bawer's book, "While Europe Slept", is the almost total lack of shared cultural experience among the Euro countries in the arts, film, pop music, etc. However, they all had one thing in common: US culture. Each Euro country, it seems, has a dual-culture, just like in Canada: their own and the US.

A: as an American living in BC - here's my take. I grew up in Illinois. I have a strong sense of being a Mid-westerner. I have often commented that I could never have moved to the southern US as I just didn't like the whole Southern way of life/culture/whatever. I also roll my eyes at Californians - think they are for the most part a little whacked out. And those east coasters from New York and New Jersey are a little loud and brash from a mid-western point of view.

So, yes, within the US, there are regional senses of identity. That being said, I've always had a greater, over arching identity as an American that transcended any annoyances I might have with Americans from a different region.

I've lived in BC for 12 years now, and all I can see in Canada is a very antagonistic relationship between the different regions of Canada. Ontario vs. the prairies vs. Alberta vs. Quebec vs. Atlantic provinces vs. Newfoundland and oh yeah throw in the territories. What is the over-riding commonality amongst all these different regions that binds them together? What one thing makes the hearts of citizens from ALL those regions swell with pride?

I simply don't have the answer to that last question. And my husband, born in Edmonton, couldn't answer it either.

Sadly I could answer that question, easily, from the American point of view.

Agreed DS, Central Canada will never let go of their power hold.

Let's bring this perspective home.

How would Albertans feel if Regina or Whitehorse was to have as much say in the running of the Republic of Alberta? Or say High Level, or Balzak?

Alberta & Sask has what 10% of the population of Canada and we want equal rights?

Fact of life, the bigger guy always wins unless you kick him in the peanuts.

So the only way Alberta can win is withold cash payments to Ottawa.

And that takes a leader, bigger than parade jumper Mr. Klein.

Quebec is what you get if Caesar had not conquered Gaul.

Caesar: "Enough with the whining."

Gallic plebe: "We demand that you stop with the Roman margarine and use our butter that is fit for a King."

Caesar: "Don't you have a salad to go toss or something?"

It seems, unfortunately, that a country and its identity are often defined by war.
The US had the dubious honor of fighting both the War of Independence and the Civil War, leading to a much more sharply defined identity. Canada has fought in many wars, most notably last century, but we were still a Dominion of the British Empire.
Maybe the long and protracted war we are now engaged in will cause more of us to define our own identity...Whatever it may be...

It's not a "point". It's an observation. Tell me who has more in common - Albertans and Montanans or Albertans and Ontarians? Manitobans and Minnesotans or Manitobans and Quebecers? British Columbians and Washingtonians or British Columbians and Newfoundlanders?

Our natural kinships and shared experiences in North America flow north-south, not east-west. That's a product of shared geography, history and navigation routes. It's not political. It's organic.

How very, very true!

Take for instance Quebec and the Innuit on Baffin island. Both speak different languages, and both live off the travails of others.

Now about Saskatchewan and Venezuela.....

Sooz: you made a very excellent point - after everyting is said and done, you are American.

The United States (good name by the way) defines a country better than "settlement, village", or "land" which is where Canada (Kanata)came from.

SO generic - a settlement of what, whiners?

Sadly the one thing lost that would have made Canadians strong, and balanced, is from the conservative British and outgoing American view points.

Throw in the French influence and we'd have a bit of culture. Sadly this is lost in the cheap whine they serve along with a mouldy cheezy attitude of playing the "anglosized victimhood" card.

We could have been such a great country.

what u folks do not understand is that 'american' culture is really a global culture, formed by the combination of all the different peoples that have settled there over the centuries....u know, the old 'melting pot'...hence the global appeal...meanwhile, in our little multi-culti society, you have little tribal this, and little tribal that, each with their own little firewall....gee, not hard to figure that one out

"How would Albertans feel if Regina or Whitehorse was to have as much say in the running of the Republic of Alberta? Or say High Level, or Balzak?"

Actually I agree with the proposal of the Alberta Alliance to institute an Albertan senate, triple E in design. This would ensure regional representation in addition to representation based on population. As far as Regina or Whitehorse, I don't think a multi-province separation/union (i.e., Western Canada) would be possible let alone advantageous, at least in the short term.

"Fact of life, the bigger guy always wins unless you kick him in the peanuts."

And of course, I wouldn't expect Alberta to have a dominant voice in an "ideal" confederation, but it would have a greater voice than now. For example, the House of Commons would continue to be dominated by central Canada (though with seats based on actual population), but the effective, elected Senate would be a very different with equal representation for each province (so for example Ontario, Alberta, and PEI would all have an equal number of Senators).

I also think, whether one agrees with separation or not, there is a common path that Alberta must travel whether the destination is separation or to be in a reformed confederation. Restructuring is necessary, like the famous/infamous firewall letter, regardless of the ultimate political end.

And yes, this is something Ralph couldn't do - and I doubt the PCs will in the future (though I guess we'll see following the convention).

As an American who's always held a fondness for Canada and a continuing interest in its workings,I believe I can safely express my view that the Trudeau inspired "Candianism" is a pathetic fraud that has subjugated, if not destroyed, the true identity of a nation that, consequently, subverted its promise of greatness. Putting maple leaves and the word "Canada" on EVERYTHING does not a nation make. Political trickery and intellectual humbug can never make one nation out of two solitudes. A sense of oneness is essential.

The United States was forged in revolution and tempered by a civil war that, for the most part, washed away our own two solitudes. Our strength was hard won, and, despite the pesky Democrats, it will not be easily lost. Most newcomers, even the border jumpers, desire to take on the profound sense of "American" that the majority here shares. Thus, a Texan is dear to me as an American, not as a Texan. We are both different and the same.

I was once at a school event where I was standing next to a Russian immigrant as we recited "The Pledge of Allegiance". This woman noticed me place my hand over my heart and said to me, "I am a citizen." as she too placed her hand over her heart. I said to her, "You're every bit as much an American as I am." My family has been here since 1620 and I truly believe the words I said.

Here goes...

Kate....Bang on on the organic N/S thing

Dennis....I hear Bellingham has a nice port.

Bolloks...yer right in the respect that we have been played....like a cheap fiddle.

TG.....You make my point beautifully. The smarmy punk ass attitude that believes Alberta won the geological lottery is what drives the separtist/reform sentiment.

You and many others who hold this opinion obviously watched too many episodes of The Beverly Hillbillys. You know....Jed fires the 12 guage and up from the ground comes the bubbling crude...black gold...texas tea....instant millionare!!!! It's just that easy!!!

Check with any geologist...I'm sure that they will tell you that the tarsands/hydrocarbon formations stop at the Alta/Sask...Alta/BC border. Fort Mac and Bonnyville are within 150 k of that mysterious geological divide.....hell LLoydminister rides that line.

I have spent many nights on the Iron...about twenty years worth starting when I was 16...it was all about getting it out not putting it in.

In that vein....putting it in....Alberta has transfered 225 BILLION into the pot over the last 40 years. Of that amount Quebec has recieved 218 BILLION. So who do you figure is putting what into whom?

Screw me once shame on you...screw me twice shame on me.

Syncro

I liked this Thanksgiving post that birddog from maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom. wrote. I think its message holds true for many, many Canadians too. So many immigrants have come having suffered greatly. And so many landed here with little more than their faith.

-Re-posted from November, 2005

Pilgrims Landing

How did they celebrate their first year and their first harvest in the fall of 1621, when they sat down with their Cape Cod Wampanoag friends?

"Deer and wildfowl." What else? We don't know. What we do know is that these folks had been through a nasty voyage in a rotten, leaky boat, landed at the wrong place - remember, they were headed to what is now New York City ("North Virginia") - which was better idea. They managed to scrape out a living, thanks to the Indian's education (these folks weren't farmers, anyway) as they watched their family members die.

Only 53 of the original 104 immigrants survived until fall, 1621. Then they gave thanks to God for their doubtless meager harvest.

It's always been a wonder to me that they didn't all catch the next flight from Logan back to Leyden./s Trust in God is strong stuff, and many of us are not strong enough to handle the powerful grip of God. Thanksgiving is about putting our faith in the Lord, or trying to - and nothing else. God Bless us, and America, please, and make us Pilgrims in our own time, in our own ways.

h/t maggiesfarm

> Australia is what you get when you cross an Englishman with a Mexican.
Posted by: Kate at November 23, 2006 12:59 PM

Leads to:

"Canadians are overeducated Mexicans."

kakola

I once heard a seriously inebriated western U.S. Senator observe that the continent was divided in the wrong direction - that the border should have run from the Gulf up the Mississippi River, and thence up to James Bay. When asked how California would fit into that picture he replied, "Maybe it'll slide into the ocean after a big earthquake, and Japan can have it."

The fact is that English Canadians ARE Americans, and always have been. English Canada was founded by Americans that chose to remain loyal to the crown after the Revolutionary War ended. So there are really two "Americas" - one that chose to go it alone immediately and another that chose a more gradual approach to independence. The reason we have so much trouble "defining" ourselves is that we are pretty much the same as our southern cousins.

My comment to Al is: If you think that the British "should have wiped the last vestiges of France off the continent while they were at it" Really, Al? What about sending Newfoundland packing off back to Britain? I seem to remember a recent premier of yours taking down the Canadian flag in your provincial government buildings because of a tiff with Ottawa! What, is he not STILL your premier? That is some kind of tough talk from a johnny-come-lately. You weren't around for the dance - don't criticise the band. Just be damned glad that you are at least here to be a spectator!

The comments from a couple of Americans here are to the point and accurate:
There is no such thing as a Canadian idea, identity, or culture. Hence it is no wonder that there is always a national crisis in Canada, be it Quebec or something else.

Read
"The Nine Nations of North America"

eventual glimpse of the future.

however, it reveals the current status of "nationhood " ei common values , culture.

i don't know about the alberta - montana thing . i've been in havre , montana 40 miles or so south of the border and talked to people there who didn't know where alberta was . but maybe thats a bad example and it was a few years ago . depends what you mean by in common with maybe ?

The great Mordecai Richler once said something to the effect of (I paraphrase): Canadians would be much better off if they just realized that they were Americans, Americans who had opted for a slightly different form of government.