US Dems proudly support the troops. Canadian troops.

Here's a really good story about this, with photos.

http://tinyurl.co.uk/p6e5

There's another leftist ad, put out by MoveOn org which was on TV a year ago during the US Thanksgiving, as part of their regular Bush bashing.

It showed a group of soldiers grouped around a table - and weeping wives at home in the US, because their men weren't home for thanksgiving. The only problem was, the soldiers were British not Americans.

Is basic ignorance a characteristic of the left, who focus around fiction and emotion, and ignore facts and reason?

ET asks...

"Is basic ignorance a characteristic of the left, who focus around fiction and emotion, and ignore facts and reason?"

The answer is yes.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Unlike most blogging Tories who still have their heads stuck in the sand, I think the Democrats are a far better choice than the Republicans. I consider myself centre-right, but I have zero tolerance for extreme policies. I got involved in politics in 2000 to kick out the far left NDP here in BC who was wreacking havoc and likewise the far right Republicans have caused similiar destruction in the United States and need to be turfed ASAP.

As usial the demacratic jackass show just how its lower then a snake in a wagon rut a very low rut

Too bad taliban jack can't be like the dems and support our troops. Wonder how the events in NK will affect Nov elections. With the dems now bashing gays left and right, who will EGAL vote for. Those pooor gay scoutmaster, gay teachers and other gays with access to children, (wonder how 17yr olds like being referred to as children)
must be shacking in their boots wondering when they will be targeted as bad people and removed from their positions. Will the Sec of Ed have to resign because he did nothing to stop gays in the classroom.

Watch in the next 48 hours how the Republicans will come out swinging against North Korea, and how their dramatic drop at the polls gets erased.

Kim Jong-Il just gave the Republicans victory in the election this term.

The Republicans supported the troops by sending them to war with inferior equipment and making them personally pay for flak jackets and helmet liners that actually work.

3w.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101061,00.html

3w.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=us_military_s_treatment_of_us_troops

"The Republicans supported the troops by sending them to war with inferior equipment and making them personally pay for flak jackets and helmet liners that actually work."

And the scum liberals sent our boys to war with green uniforms in the desert.

"Unlike most blogging Tories who still have their heads stuck in the sand, I'm moving to Toronto to work in Financial Services."

Good luck, Miles.

Still stuck on stupid I see.
Remember, never in their history have Afghans allowed an outsider to occupy with impunity,NEVER. The Taliban cannot succeed without the support of the people, that's how guerilla warfare works(ie Iraq). THEY live there. We don't. There is a pool of 40 million of the Taliban's ethnic group to draw from. Who will win? Ask the Persians, or the British, or the Russians, or the Americans. They have already spoken. It is written in history. Time to wake up and deal with reality. Just because we have the biggest guns doesn't mean we get the biggest victory. The Taliban have been inserviced in Iraq and now they are up to date in how to kill and maim a few at a time, drip, drip, the blood of our young men so Afghanistan can return to fundamental Islam much like before. Oh yes, the seven percent educated elite won't like it, neither will the oil and gas men, but hey Imperialism is getting old and the American puppet government has no authority outside the Afghan equivalent of the 'green zone' in Kabul. THAT is reality. I didn't make it but I can face it. That is what we must accept before we can really begin to find a true solution. It is a no-win mess so let's support our troops and bring the remainder home alive like their families want, is that so bad? We can spend the billions on homeland security. Save our soldiers for real national emergencies. Sending them to bail out Americans because their government is stuck on stupid is not a good enough reason. This saving the Afghans stuff is bullshit. They have adopted a shiaa law in their constitution and after we leave they will revert right back to their tribal wars and fundamentalist Islam. The truth hurts I know but there it is.

"And the scum liberals sent our boys to war with green uniforms in the desert."

Posted by: multirec

And the previous Con government sold our Chinooks to the Netherlands, leaving our troops on the ground and vulnerable.

3w.sfu.ca/casr/ft-hillier1.htm

How long before we have helicopters? Both Libs and Cons are guilty for letting our military rot.

iberia - those insignificant equipment snafus are old history and long ago corrected. The US military is the best equipped in the world. Get over it.

Quoting George Orwell...""We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.".....and not because of little pansies like yourself.

"How long before we have helicopters? Both Libs and Cons are guilty for letting our military rot."

Iberia, I can't get your link to work, so I can't comment on it.
Suffice to say, I don't believe that you'll see PMSH let our military rot.

Just FYI, the little paper poppies are sold by VFW (veterans of foreign wars) guys in the US on Armistice Day (Nov. 11) but rarely do you see troops sporting them in their dress uniform. Somehow, I don't think they can wear them while in full dress, but maybe I'm wrong. I also tend to beleive that most military in the US have not been brainwashed by years of Anti-war mentality, which is got to be the origin of the sea of poppies you see in Canada. It's less of "never forget" and more of "never again."

Hey penny:

I was in the Navy for five years. What's your military background?

multirec:

Paste the link into your browser and change the "3w" to "www". I use 3w to get around the spam filter.

Iberia, I did but the operation times out.

...and multirec, Harper may not let the military rot, and he didn't initially send the troops to Afghanistan, but he's keeping them fighting there without the proper equipment. Equally negligent in my book.

multirec:

Try googling "canadian helicopter procurement for afghanistan" and you'll have a choice of articles to read.

"but he's keeping them fighting there without the proper equipment. Equally negligent in my book."

What equipment would that be Iberia? Equipment that Canada doesn't currently have? Purchase of military hardware doesn't exactly happen overnight.
Calling Harper negligent is a tad harsh in my books, given what he had to work with, a result from the scumbag liberals.

If you let a family member drive your car in the rain with bald tires, and told them "it's ok, I'll be getting new tires soon, and btw, it's not my fault: the previous owner let the car run down," you would negligent.

Bad analogy considering it was the liberals who sent them there with "bad tires" in the first place.

CTV Talking Heads have just claimed that G. Bush Jr should not have stood up to the N Koreans. It just made them upset and so developed Nuclear Weapons. Huh ? .. But don't the NK nukes date back to the 1980s ?? Of course they do. And the CTV anchor allowed this BS to be aired.

Appease, forgive, turn-the-other-cheek and the world will be nice to you. Ya right. Maybe, just maybe the MSM in Canada should be looked at in a treason like spin. No ??

Iberia, Wow ,, really,, five whole years in the Navy, sleeping on white sheets and eating in the galley. and what did you do,, did you deploy overseas, did you patrol with a wpn, did you help starving women and children, I have in Bosnia, the middle east and afgan, Yes I have been to Afgan and I am slated to return very shortly. I know for a fact that the govt is doing everything in thier power to give us the equipment to successfully complete this worthwhile mission and get the hell back home. You can make a chopper overnight, Damn the view is good from the cheap seats isnt Iberia

Quoting George Orwell...""We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.".....and not because of little pansies like yourself.

Well, what Orwell actually wrote (in a piece on Rudyard Kipling) was, "He (Kipling) sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them."

Not that the point is any different.

steve d.: "never in their history have Afghans allowed an outsider to occupy with impunity,NEVER."

Well, hardly ever, in fact most of the time. The first independent Afghan state was formed in 1747 which must mean those outsiders had a long and successful run. Do check the chronology:
www.afghan-web.com/history/chron/index2.html
www.afghan-web.com/history/chron/index3.html

Those wonderful leftist myths that, as usual, have no foundation in fact.

Mark
Ottawa

As was once famously stated, "you go to war with the army you have, not the one you want". If we let "lack of proper equipment" stop us, we'd never go to war at all. Why? Because no matter how good the new equipment is, troops will always want something better. I can speak to that personally, seeing as how I'm one of them. For instance, the new Tac-Vest is a big improvement on the old style webbing, but it's still short of some of the stuff available on the market. Given the chance, I would buy myself a different one before deploying overseas. I would also appreciate it if the government went out and got me the one I want. But other individuals would disagree. Some like the issued vest just fine, and still others would prefer a different one than the one I would chose. You will never find a set of equipment which will satisfy every soldier. In the end, we've got a job to do, and we'll do it wearing only our boots and gitch and armed with forks if we have to. As long as the government is making an effort to supply us, that's good enough for me.

And yes, picking on the yanks is extremely silly seeing as how they're the best equipped army in the world, as well as the kings of logistics.

Is that all Canada is about now?? Just a War?? It's all you guys talk about. There are not alot of great ideas coming from this Tory gov't are there?

The Taliban cannot succeed without the support of Pakistan which is their main feeder of all supplies and support, including humans reduced to brainwashed robots,and suicide bombers. These are not "insurgents" as the media like to call them, they are non residents of Afghanistan supplied by Pakistan.
The one single step the West has to do is alert Musharaf that he MUST get his ass in gear, stop lying,and supplying the terrorists, he's just too cagey by far. He alone can put a stop to the needless killing of foreign soldiers and others merely trying to make life better for Afghanis and stop breeding terrorists.

Most of you on this blog are wanna bees. You sit on your computer talking about issues you know nothing about. Tories are losers and Canada will fall with them. We were once known as leaders in world peace now we are puppets of the corrupt Americans and we should be what!!?? I hope our stay in Afghanistan doesn't cost us too much. Too many deaths, our self esteem and break our status in the world. We have our own battle back here to drive out the Facist Tory party. You people on here are so anal you don't even know what you are.

ok4ua and what rock are u living under A?

I've seen more out of this minority Tory government in a few short months than a decade under the former dithering idiots.

Mark

Before 1747 and after 1747 the Afghans inhabited the same area with the same stubborn, independent, fundamentalist Islamic character. In other words statehood makes no difference. Just like the origin of the occupier makes no difference. In the end those same Afghans will stand, on their own terms and we will be on to some other 'urgent' escapade to 'save' another country. All in the interest of pure altruism of course. Cause we always know better than THEM whoever they happen to be.

ok4ua said: "Is that all Canada is about now?? Just a War?? It's all you guys talk about. There are not alot of great ideas coming from this Tory gov't are there?" ...-

In Remembrance of ok4ua; an archaeological fragment. ...-

A More Sensitive Way of War

I doubt that World War II pilots sent to bomb the historic capitals of Europe and Japan received sensitivity training from archaeologists: Archaeologist Aids Army on Sensitivity.

FORT DRUM, N.Y. (AP) - Col. Rick Mitchell did three tours of duty in Iraq, flying dozens of patrols and bombing missions over the desert landscape.

Even so, the veteran Air National Guard pilot did a double-take the first time he saw what appeared to be a Muslim cemetery and a mound of ruins on Range 48 at the U.S. Army’s Fort Drum in upstate New York. “It looked just like way it looked over there. It’s going to give our pilots some firsthand experience in recognizing and identifying these kinds of sites from the air under fairly realistic conditions,” said Mitchell, of Merrimac, N.H., who flies with the 118th Fighter Wing out of Connecticut.

“You don’t want to be dropping bombs on cemeteries and mosques, or blow up some important historical site that’s been there for thousands of years,” said Mitchell. “That’s certainly not going to make us any friends.”

That’s the thinking of archaeologist Laurie Rush, Fort Drum’s cultural resources manager. So with $165,000 in funding from the Department of Defense Legacy Program, Rush and the post’s Integrated Training Area Management unit has begun to heighten the cultural sensitivity of the soldiers and pilots who train at Fort Drum, including building mock cemeteries and archaeological ruins and developing a field guide.

“We need to get them trained before the fact, not after the damage is done. This should be part of deployment training for anywhere in the world - becoming familiar with the region’s cultural heritage,” said Rush.

Rush, who’s been at Fort Drum eight years, said she felt compelled to develop an awareness program after the British Museum last year reported the defiling of the ancient city of Babylon in 2003 by invading U.S. Marines, who damaged and contaminated artifacts dating back thousands of years. Transgressions included building a helicopter pad on the city’s ruins, destroying a 2,600-year-old brick road and filling sandbags with archaeological fragments.

“Museum professionals around the world were horrified. I was so angry, too, because it was just needless,” Rush said. ...-
LGF

Is it my imagination, or do all dim lefties like to capitalize words excessively? I think it makes THEM look silly.

Hey kenny:

You have the typical pongo mentality - exaggerated self importance coupled with bitter jealousy of the other MOC's. What did I do for five years? I did what I was told to do, and if you don't like it that other military members get to spend time "sleeping on white sheets and eating in the galley" then re-muster.

You can believe if you want that the gov't is doing "everthing in their power" to give you the proper equipment. If you read some history then you wouldn't be so sure of yourself.

Alex:

My point is not to pick on the Yanks but to point out that mocking the Dems for having a wrong picture on their website is hypocritical when Republicans aren't doing the best they can for the troops.

3w.sftt.org/

"Bad analogy considering it was the liberals who sent them there with 'bad tires' in the first place."

Posted by: multirec

Yes, but Harper extended the mission..."keep on driving on those bad tires boys-you'll get new ones soon."

steve d.: I think you willfully misunderstand. For most of their history the territory of Afghanistan has been ruled by non-indigenous states. Check that chronology.

"Afghanistan is a mosaic of ethnic groups and cultures, and a crossroads between east and west. An ancient land that has often been plundered, and also a focal point of trade, the region of present-day Afghanistan has seen many invading forces come and go, including Indo-Iranians, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, and the Mongols...

Before the 18th century, Afghanistan was always known as a state of Iran called Khorasan, as today's Afghan territory forms the major regions of the Khorasan.

The Encyclopaedia of Islam states:

Afghanistan
Afghānistān has borne that name only since the middle of the 18th century, when the supremacy of the Afghan race (Pashtuns) became assured: previously various districts bore distinct apellations, but the country was not a definite political unit, and its component parts were not bound together by any identity of race or language. The earlier meaning of the word was simply “the land of the Afghans”, a limited territory which did not include many parts of the present state but did comprise large districts now either independent or within the boundary of Pakistan...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan

If the Pathan Afghans (as opposed to the Tajik, Uzbek, Hazara Afghans) were so fiercely independent why did they not get their own state until 1747? The were successfully ruled by "outsiders"--mostly Iranian or Turkish, with a Mongol interlude--for most of the millenium before 1747.

In the two and a half centuries before that "Afghanistan was divided in three parts in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century. North were the Uzbeks, west was Persia and East was the Mughal empire."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan

Mark
Ottawa

steve d., 7:35pm:

In case you missed it, the reason for the war in Afghanistan wasn't to "save" or "civilize" the residents; it was to defeat a murderous terrorist regime responsible for training and harbouring terrorists who perpetrated the worst terrorist act in North America (google "911" or "World Trade Center" for more details). Interestingly, Taliban Jack & the New Dhimmitude Party are under the impression that we sent troops to Afghanistan for the sole reason of providing new schools and drinking water. Oh, yes, and - of course - "peacekeeping".

No, and no again.

See, the theory was that if we attack them & kill them over THERE, we help prevent them from killing us back HERE. The fact that we've had no further attacks in North America lends credence to the theory; the fact we've unearthed active islamofascist terrorist cells in Brampton Ontario is troubling & should redirect our evaluation of the success of the trudeaupian multiculturalism experiment.

But please don't let this stop your implied sideline cheerleading for the Taliban. Perhaps Jack Laydown could use some help in commencing negotiations with 'em and establishing an opening position.

mhb23re

Americans think the Democrats are "left-wing" because they have just about the narrowest political spectrum of any country on earth and because of their profound ignorance of politics. Canadians used to know better - then they started watching Fox, CNN, etc. To be considered left, you must be at least social democrat, that is, a party like the NDP occupies the rightmost portion of the left wing. The Democrats are significantly to the right of the NDP. They are to the right even of the Liberals. I suppose they are somewhere between the Liberal party and the Conservative party - and there's not much ideological space there.

Steve D., we have been invited, we do not occupy their land, we free it from the Taliban for the Afghanistan people.

I talked to someone who is just back from Afghanistan, and they are mad at Canadians for believing all the media BS, they seriously dislike "Taliban" Jack, and they want to be there, they are helping the Afghanistans.

You, however, are spewing garbage, for nothing more than a vote for the NDP. Our troops are laying their lives on the line, for Canada, and for Afghanistan. You, sir, are despicable!!

You are the same as the liberals. Different bowl same piss and only you talk about how great tho art. You are a worn out party with young faces who talk the ssms rhetoric as the liberals. We are now puppets of the USA and don't think they give a damn about Canada. They need our resources not us. Why are you Tory bloggers so naive?? We won't be the last banana republic to make the mistake of trusting America. A lot of Americans don't trust their own gov't. They don't have a lot of options. We do. You can think about the issues and vote NDP or live with your heads up your ass and vote Liberal who aren't liberal or Conservative who are repressive.

ok4ua - your biggest trading partner is the US by about 84% of all Canadian trade, to a reliable neighbor next door that pays it's bills, so, in your bizarre universe what is it you want? "Trusting" America? We pays our bills. Canada has never been threatened by us. Your country has always been free to elect whom it wants, so what's your stupid point?

The vast majority of Americans do trust their government, but, as a MSM Kool-aid drinking lackey that would be beyond your comprehension.

iberia - want to hold your navy discharge papers up to the screen so we can all see it. Guess not. My point. You can assume any bio you want in cyberspace, but, don't count on anyone having to believe it.

Mark
My point is that they were never 'owned' even though they were occupied. They will be their own masters...that is fundamentalist shia law islamists. You may have noticed there is more than just a little resentment against the West these days. The Americans thought they defeated the Taliban in 2003. I wrote that this would be a costly waste of time 25 dead Canadian soldiers ago. What is your 'lesson learned' number? 100? 200? 2745? That last number appears to be the American lesson learned number for Iraq. Now that the Taliban have received such excellent training in Iraq you can bet they will be far more deadly in future. They will try to back out of their mess in Iraq like they did in Afghanistan, with the 'help' of allies like Canada. Both Afghanistan and Iraq need to have a civil war to clear the air. The strong will take over and we will end up with Islamic governments in both countries. Iran will be the new centre of power in the Middle East. Thanks G.W.

MHB
Yeah, we are fighting them over there. Training them too. There have been attacks in Britain, Spain, and of course, numerous plots that were caught before disaster. I guess those don't count do they. Neither does the Anthrax attack that killed and infected a few dozen. We won't even think about the several chemical plant fires that have occured in the USA in the last few years. Make no mistake. We are fighting them here and there. Terror has multiplied since we started fighting them over there.

Hunter
I am sure there are some Afghans who would love to benefit from a westernized Afghanistan. How many Afghans will be flying into Canada? A small connected group of perhaps affluent and or educated elite who would benefit handsomely. What most want is peace. As long as there are occupiers there will be no peace. It would be the same in Canada. Nobody wants occupiers. Especially those that cannot or will not complete their promises. No guerilla group has ever existed without significant support of the population. Pakistan is stable as long as they don't have a civil war. If they start antagonizing the those Taliban supporters in the mountains Pakistan would be in danger of having to cope with IED's on their roads.
BTW yes we were invited by an American puppet government which has little power or influence beyond Kabul. So what is the value of such an invitation?

The Democratic Party is being discussed a lot on this thread, so I think a little reality check is in order.

Should the Democratic Party be successful in our elections, don't expect to see a great deal of change. The Democratic Party will then have more seats in a government in gridlock. The executive branch will still be Republican, and the other house would still be Republican, and as a consequence Democrats would not be able to get anything done.

Then you would have the situation of many frustrated Democrats, because they would be very upset with the fact that they poured out in an attempt to suppress Republicans, and yet it only resulted in excuses from Democrat politicians for their inability to achieve any change.

Second, it should be rememberd that when Bush took office, his first nominee for Secretary of Defense was Senator Sam Nunn of Georgia, a well known Democratic hawk and an expert on military affairs. Actually, here in the US conservatives regard Bush as a moderate on issues other than defense.

Sam Nunn was part of the traditional Democratic Party in the US. Our archetype of a liberal a few decades ago was John Kennedy, who was a cold warrior who faced Kruschev down in the Cuban missile crisis and lowered taxes with his famous "A rising tide lifts all boats" speech. Today, Kennedy would be regarded as a Republican.

For many decades in the US, Democrats were what we refer to as "blue-dog Democrats", that is conservative Democrats. Joe Lieberman might be thought of in this category when the subject is restricted to military matters.

Our present Democratic Party was mostly influenced by the" New Left". This was a movement that was an outgrowth of radical student-body politics in the 1960s. Some of its famous groups were SDS, the Weathermen, the Chicago 7, SNCC, etc. There were many of these, and you can look them all up on google.

The New Left essentially were people who picked up from the old Left in the US after the Stalin purges were confirmed by Kruschev. That cut the heart out of the old Communist movement in the US.

The New Left was backed by money from the USSR through a variety of front groups, and of course they raised some of their own capital as well.

The New Left collapsed as a huge rebel movement as soon as the US stopped imposing the draft. When kids were no longer afraid that they would have to face military service, their passionate interest in the political spectrum disappeared.

What you see as the Democratic Party today are people who were ideologically influenced by the views, the spirit, and zeitgeist of the 1960s.

We need for the Democratic Party to return to the tradition of John Kennedy so that we can have a two-party system in the US once again, rather than a Republican Party and a bunch of moonbats.

"The New Left essentially were people who picked up from the old Left in the US after the Stalin purges were confirmed by Kruschev. That cut the heart out of the old Communist movement in the US.

The New Left was backed by money from the USSR through a variety of front groups, and of course they raised some of their own capital as well."

The New Left took a dim view of the USSR and vice versa. They certainly were not funded by it!

But I agree that the New Left collapsed when the draft ended. Most of its members went on to become yuppies. The New Left has been long dead.

penny:

Once again, you're right because you say you are. I can't provide documentation here, but neither can anyone else claiming to be an active or former member of the forces. However, if you like, feel free to ask me any questions you want as they pertain to the engineering systems on DDE's or DDH's. Haven't got a clue what I'm talking about? I'm not surprised. There is no web info available either, so only someone who served onboard a steamer would actually know these things.

"'We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.'.....and not because of little pansies like yourself."

Ooooh, you talk so tough, so self-righteous. I ask again: what's your military background? I suspect that the only time you served was on your back or on your knees. And as for whether or not I was in the navy, perhaps you could get in touch with one of your old navy clients, er, friends to help you ask the technical questions. I'll be waiting...

Alex wrote:
"In the end, we've got a job to do, and we'll do it wearing only our boots and gitch and armed with forks if we have to."

Sheesh, dude, you guys are a whole lot tougher than I am. I have sone friends who are ex airbourn, a couple of PPCLIs and a couple of Lord Strathcona Horse. They are all a whole lot tougher than I am. I am just an old hound dog that sits on the porch and barks every now and then.
Thanks for your efforts to keep my part of the porch safe for me.

Cheers
HaySeed

"iberia":

Hey, buddy, I understand that you're justifiably PO'd with Penny's comment, but "...on your back or on your knees"?
Take the high road, stoker, and leave that in the ER. Ya don't wanna make all the old 314's look like rude buggers, eh?
In the big picture, we're most all of us on the same side, here. ;)

Cheers!

I think that would warrant lberia for banning due to a disgusting ad hominem on penny. For shame, lberia.

Penny,
Iberia's 5 whole years in the Navy makes him an expert. How will we ever compete with all that military knowledge he has amassed from all those years of service???

Multipy that by 5 Iberia and you have my service to Canada! I have seen the good and the bad, from 4 PM's. I will take this PM over the previous 3.
FYI, contrary to the BS from various political
special interest groups and parties.......we do support our comrades in the field, we do support the mission and we do support our country as well as the political leadership currently running this great and awesome country.