United Nations Save The Children From Parents Fund

Is there a way to file a class action lawsuit against the UN for allowing my tortured childhood?

I should be compensated for my parents attempts to turn me into an upstanding citizen.

...the left never ceases to amaze me.

I first read this report with some interest until I came to the part where they defined their idea of abuse. I could just smell it coming and then bang...corporal punishment. This should be enough to bring out another "anti-spanking" bill. Between bogus African Development Projects and these studies, I have found enough reason to put our UN membership fees on installment and maybe even lose a couple of cheques. It's really too bad because there are some serious numbers for sexual abuse, poverty and child soldier issues and now they are going to distort their numbers and lower their credibility by throwing in spanking.

Years ago it was completely acceptable to strike your servants, and generally those from the lower classes. And of course, you were free to hit your wife with impunity if she did something wrong, in order to correct her behaviour.

Nowadays, hitting other people non-consentually is called "assault" or "violence", with one notable exception: we are entitled to strike with our hands, or with a belt or a stick, those small helpless people who are dependent on us.

It's hard to understand how a grown man could find it in himself to defend physically striking someone, oh, say, two-foot-nine and thirty pounds, or that he would proudly announce his intention to strike the child next in line, presumably when the lucky kid reaches the appropriate age/weight/size threshold for hitting.

That being said, I don't think the state should intrude in such matters. Intead, a larger male neighbour should enter the house and strike the assaultive parent -- you know, for his own good.

Of course, then the parent would call the cops, because you can't just go around assaulting people...

EBD: Remove the "free to strike your wife" that is an urban myth ... at least for the countries decended from Britain and France. Interestingly it was once the law (France, Quebec and Louisiana) that a man whose wife struck him had to be punished as HE had committed a crime by allowing his wife to strike him, see "Riding the Donkey Backwards" or look in a history of law book).

As for the article ... There's very good reason to get rid of most corporal punishment. Sadly, that is taken FAR too far resulting in real child abuse. It is clearly child abuse to not correct one's child! The results of not-correction are often more harmful than than slight over-correction.

The whole thing is politics taken to insane lengths. Child rearing is a blance: The UN want to throw out the balance resulting in real harm to real chidlren.

Child abuse is letting the state tell you what's best for your child. Overpaid bureaucrats have as their number one objective not what's best for my child but the prtotection of their salaries and pensions. We know what the UN is full of.

My parents brought me up right. A spank or yelling at prepared me for the real world. I stood up to bullies and I am able to discern when my boss yells to show he in in command versus letting off steam. Singing Kumbaya never stopped bullies. A punch back did.

Check out the entrepreneur who has the successful 'ladies undergarment line' called 'Spanks'.She credits her success as an adult with her parents firm discipline. Guess why she called her project 'Spanks'? Yep...they did it too!

The UN? Is that the same organization with those worst offender countries on the Human Rights Commission?

Why do we even pay attention to the UN anymore? It does nothing.

wonder how they discipline students in all those madrasses ??

I stopped putting $ in UNICEF boxes years ago when I found out they were using it to promote "Planned Parenting" (abortions) abroad.

I'm a mother who has, according to the UN, abused her child.

"While the report notes violence in the home.. is most often accompanied by psychological violence, including threats, belittling, isolation and rejection."

Yup, that's me.

Here's some context. He 'angel invested' in an aspiring drug dealer at school with money he stole from me. The new dealer was beaten up by the existing dealers and my son lost his money. I found out, reported it to the school. He was not kicked out (despite zero tolerance.)

(BTW: he never did drugs himself, I know because I had him tested.)

He then stole my car (no licence) and drove to a store and stole electronics. Was caught. No charges (too much work for the store), just banned from the store for life. I chose not to press charges as well because I didn't have time to deal with CAS idiots.

At this point he was definitely on a downward spiral and I had to do something. So I grounded him fully (isolation) including cancelling his driver's ed lessons. I'm sure I said humiliating things to him. And I stripped his room of all belongings except what he would have if he was in the juvenile detention centre. And his Lego and books and a radio. More isolation and humiliation since he was no longer around online with his friends.

If I had to leave the house, he had to come with me. That meant he attended all my meetings (sitting in the corner), came to the store if I had to go shopping and walked with me when I exercised (public humiliation since he was 16 at the time.)

He had outside 'help' as well who supported my actions. Our family had been in crisis (one unexpected death, then another death over a couple of months due to cancer) and I needed the extra support a psychologist would give us.

He survived. A third unexpected death brought him around, the grounding only stopped the downward spiral. His grandfather(who knew of the problems I was having and had offered to take my son for a few days to give me a break from the grounding) left a written account about his misspent youth and my son learned that being bad as a kid doesn't mean you can't be a good adult.

From me he learned there is a line he couldn't cross. He was part of a family and there were expectations he had to meet or else he would be on probation as a member of the family.

We survived. He never 'hated' me. He needed the controls on him. He knew he was out of control and couldn't pull himself out of it. My actions gave him the brakes he needed and the time (and attention) he needed to pull himself around.

He learned the quality of the people he surrounds himself with is important. He's now in a Law & Justice program at college to become a computer security expert. He eventually got his driver's licence which became a blessing to me when I became disabled.

Given how much I 'abused' him, he is doing great. As are the truly abused boys my son brought into our home to give them a safe place to live. All three are at college together now.

EBD, you may also want to recite that under ancient Roman law a man's wife and children were his property and thus he could not be prosecuted for killing even an adult son. The Roman's also permitted infantcide along a similar vein until those pesky Christian's got in charge.

And by the way,

Assault: An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
Battery: The unlawful and unwanted touching or striking of one person by another, with the intention of bringing about a harmful or offensive contact.

Forgeting about whether it is lawful or not, bodily injury or harm needs to be involved. If someone smacked your hand I think you'll have a very hard time convincing a police officer, judge or jury that you suffered bodily injury. "But, but it tingled for 20 seconds. Oh! the agony!!"

If there is actual abuse, then there is real injury not just hurt feelings.

EBD's comments notwithstanding, I want to thank my dear parents for the love they showed me when they smacked my bottom when that is exactly what I needed. I have a clear sense of right and wrong. I know and accept "responsibility" in my life. I have a clear sense of "proper behavior". I don't claim to be the perfect parent however I modeled the way I parent on my experience as a child growing up. Gee, I now have 3 grown children who have the same aforementioned qualities. Is it just me or is there a palpable lack of those very qualities in many of our youth today? Could it be that too many are being parented by folks who are of the same opinions as EBD?

Note that assault includes an "unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury". If you have a witness or two and there was a clear threat or attempt, even if there was no physical contact, and you're willing to testify that you experienced fear and stress - "I was very frightened, my heart started pounding...", you might be able to obtain an assault conviction. I've heard of an assault conviction in a road rage situation where just hitting the victim's car roof hard with a hand was enough.

I'm not going to argue against child disciplining but spanking, even a gentle spanking that is not painful and only humiliating, could be legally perceived as threatening bodily injury and therefore might be assault.

I recently spoke with my aged mother and we laughed about the time I had my mouth washed out with soap at the age of seven or so, I remember it well - being held by the sink while a bar of soap was pushed in and out of my mouth a few times - I remember being very afraid my teeth might get broken.

Fred asked: "wonder how they discipline students in all those madrasses ??"

Here it is, Fred. In Great Britain, now Madrasses Britainstan.

The end result of political correctness/multiculturalism is sharia law; the law of Islam.

Is Canada next? ...-

Jawdropper of the Day

This one could also be filed under “Britain’s Gigantic Problem:” Schoolgirl arrested for refusing to study with non-English pupils. (Hat tip: cbinflux.)

A teenage schoolgirl was arrested by police for racism after refusing to sit with a group of Asian students because some of them did not speak English.

Codie Stott’s family claim she was forced to spend three-and-a-half hours in a police cell after she was reported by her teachers. The 14-year-old - who was released without charge - said it had been a simple matter of commonsense and accused the school and police of an over-the-top reaction.

The incident happened in the same local education authority where a ten-year-old boy was prosecuted earlier this year for calling a schoolfriend racist names in the playground, a move branded by a judge “political correctness gone mad.” ...-
LGF

Check out the g&m today for the article on Iran and stoning women to death for adultery. Sentence to be carried out after serving the 15 yrs in jail. That is allowed under sharia law. Wonder how many women supporting taliban jack, and thinking these people and sharia law is great would be eligible for stoning. Belinda would qualify as a lib supporter of the terrorists.
The un has long passed its due date, and should be abolished.

Leave it to the U.N. to fight imaginary demons, (in civilized society under the jurisdiction of local police and child protection agencies etc); all the while ignoring the rape, torture and terror going on in Darfur. That is more distressing to MY kids than being forced to do demeaning chores.

Here's a very interesting article on the subject of spanking your child:
W3.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/10/us_execs/

So if you want your child to succeed and be a leader, discipline and spanking seem to be key.

I stopped putting $ in UNICEF boxes years ago when I found out they were using it to promote "Planned Parenting" (abortions) abroad.

I stopped when I found out they were funding camps where Palestinian kids could go to learn how to be a terrorist.

I like the old adage about getting a donkey to move. You can feed it a carrot, or you can hit it with a stick. However, if you only hit it, it will get lean and mean and start kicking and biting. But if you only give it carrots, it will get fat and lazy. In both these cases the donkey stops moving.

If you do nothing but "negatively" discipline your child, they will learn that nothing they do is sufficient, have low self esteem, and will lash out at others. If you do nothing but give "positive" reinforcement, the child learns that there are no repercussions for their actions, and that all things are acceptable, and they will do nothing without a "bribe".

Boundaries are discovered by children through both types of reinforcment. You cannot neglect either side or the child will be lost.

And before someone puts words in my mouth, I'm not advocating beating your children with sticks.

I am however advocating the use of negative reinforcement, and by that I don't mean discussions with your two year old about why what they did was wrong as the sole negative punishment (at that age they have no understanding of what you're talking about, no matter how brilliant you think your child is). And for goodness sake, don't turn a negative reinforcement into a positive one. That is, if you punish, don't immediately try to soothe or try to "make up" for punishing them.

Anyway, to sum up, abuse is bad, punishment is good.

These past few days, local radio stations in Vancouver have carried advertisements from the UN.

“Make sure your children carry a UNICEF collection box this Halloween. “

First of all, let me say that I was beaten as a child, therefore, anything I say can be attributed to the ongoing trauma from those long ago events.

The worst aspect of the whole "child as victim" crusade, is the almost total lack of ability to discipline the bullies and thugs who infest all our schools, from elementary right through to high school.

My autistic son, who walks around in his own world, and rarely interacts with other kids, is regularly assaulted and battered, and I do know the meaning of those terms, at his school. All the "authorities" can do is talk.

When I was in school, bullying was dealt with very swiftly, via the dreaded "strap", and rarely was it necessary to use it twice.

We were also marked, on our report cards, on respect for teachers, and other students. We were regularly told, "you are your brothers' keeper", and the meaning of that dastardly Christian phrase was explained.

Another phrase we were forced to repeat in the early grades, was, " do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and , again, it was explained, so there could be no doubt as to what was meant.

Fortunately, my generation, when we became of age, and took over the school system, opted to correct these non-self oriented ways, and the result is the current system, where kids in school have to fear for their lives. The only disciplinary tactic left, is to send the offender home for a few days, which is just fine with him, as he hates school anyway.

Thje UN should retrace its' history, and go back to doing what it was originally intended to do, and leave micro-management of developed societies to the rightful persons, parents.

As for my opening statement, my parents gave me a good spanking whenever I deserved it, but I love to use that phrase when discussing corporal punishment with liberals, it intimidates and confuses them. After all, how can a "Victim" of child abuse be in favor of it! Liberals are so easy to debate when you turn their tactics back on them.

Size matters...just wondering if EBD(5:21 am) was ever the person in authority with a defiant two foot someone who broke every houserule before looking you in the eye saying..'and what are you going to do about it'?
Easier to let them know(with love and firm discipline) that there are consequences to socially unacceptable behaviour when they are two foot something instead of trying to do it when they are six foot something and the community is affected by their defiance(read: police are called)
Teachers can identify the ones who know what respect for authority means, and the little darlins that have been allowed to rule the house.

This article and the views it perpetuates are the reason we have so many children out of control these days. I see so many kids that are never punished and learn that timeout is the worst thing that will happen, or they might get a treat for being a brat.

The thing is, when I was a child, my parents spanked me sparingly but I did deserve it when I got it. The few times I was spanked, made the statement "Enough or a spanking will be in order" a real behaviour correction technique. The physical spanking was not needed many times after the first few as I knew when I had stepped over the line. It has to start early because that is when behavour is set. When they get older, the trouble becomes serious and the correction is much harder.

My wife is a teacher and often has to deal with kids who have no discipline at home. It is awful because the kids feel they can get away with anything and all this attitude does is put them behind in society. Discipline is needed to get ahead in life and "floaters" as I call them, rarely do anything useful with their lives until they finally impose discipline on their life. If you love your children, discipline them and raise them to be good people.

Like everything else in the world there is a line between discipline and assault. A smack on the bottom is different than breaking skin or causing bruising. As one spoke earlier, young people need to know that there are limits, some things are wrong and others are right. As a parent it is YOUR responsibility to bring up your children to know right from wrong. Yes, there are times that this will not work on the problem child but as "kids need limits" will attest, nothing is beyond hope or help. To her, I doff my hat. Sometimes being a parent isn't all fun and games or easy.

Something similar to warm the hearts of our lately resident trolls (B & S). They would just LOOOVE to see thsi in Canada:

British Schoolgirl arrested for refusing to study with non-English pupils.

A teenage schoolgirl was arrested by police for racism after refusing to sit with a group of Asian students because some of them did not speak English.

Codie Stott’s family claim she was forced to spend three-and-a-half hours in a police cell after she was reported by her teachers. The 14-year-old - who was released without charge - said it had been a simple matter of commonsense and accused the school and police of an over-the-top reaction.

Go to LGF for the link (if I post it, the filter will delay my message by about 12 hours)

There should be a new warning sign.
Beware of social workers, UN organizations, employees of Child Protection Agencies.
They could be dangerous to your rights as a parent.

First posted at Marks Peters site.

Nice piece you wrote today.

I just can't help though thinking. If this applies to ALL Nations. I mean where was the UN while Iran was using children as mine sweepers?

Did we see any blue helmets taking children away from Palestinian mothers who sent son's to die in human bomb explosions?

What ever happened to the UN soldiers buggering children in the Congo? To those selling children into sexual slavery.

Does this include Thailand & its child sex rings?

Seems to me its only Western Nation these UN hypocrites are after. Its our society they want destroyed.

Kyoto proved that. Trying to destroy the West’s industrial capacity while paying for our enemies & allowing them to pollute to their hearts content.

Why does the UN not concentrate on the pedophile rings world wide? Perhaps they support them. After all its the parents with values, they hate.

The world is mad with a death wish.
This is just another wedge to annihilate the very idea of personnel choice or liberty. To say nothing of transmitting freedom from family to family.

Once the family has been disbanded or neutered, it will deconstruct the whole of civilization for the West. Since the Family is the brick & foundation stone of our entire polity. Leading to the rise of the totalitarians.

As usual where being set up by the World biggest con game full of tyrants. The UN!!!!

At Bible camp one time my whole cabin got a public 'paddling' for having the most unclean table or cabin (I can't remember). This was a canoe paddle. Yikes! I survived and wasn't even that embarassed. I was bothering my brother one day and he told me if I didn't stop he'd slap me across the face. I kept doing it and he kept his word. He taught me something that day and I never resented him for it.

There are obviously a lot of people at the UN who desperately need a spanking! CBC too!
Oh Hell....yes a lot of posters I've been reading on this blog as well!
Let the BLEATING begin!

The U.N. has done what the League of Nations did in the early half of the last century. Turned themselves into the dictators club. Time to shut them down.

Free,

Agreed! Something UN ambassador Bolten threatened to do months ago, but US [paper Tiger], No switch to the UDN so far.
United DEMOCRATIC Nations.
=======

One can*t help but notice that Liberano$ are more prone to scream and flail their arms, monkey like; To demonstrate and protest.

Rather than fix any problem the first impulse is kneejerk emotional demands for government help!

Conservatives, OTH, tend to find solutions. For instance . . .

TOP REASONS TO OWN AN E-BIKE
=====================
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No registration required

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Compliant with Canadian Federal Regulations

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Cutting Iran, Pakistan and Russia down to size. The wave is on.

http://TonyGuitar.blogspot.com

= TG

First posted at Mark Peters' site:

I wrote a column about spanking during that Aylmer case a while ago, and the thoughts seemed appropriate here:

If spanking with a rod in and of itself really were horrible enough to warrant removal from a family, then my husband should have been taken away from his parents, my mother should have been taken away from hers, and likely every person you know over the age of 35 should all have been placed in state orphanages rather than being subjected to their horrible parents.

Does spanking really rank up there as one of the worst things you can do to a child? I think it’s getting all the attention it does because it’s easily quantifiable: you either did it or you didn’t. Because it’s easy to measure, it’s theoretically easy to remove children from parents who do discipline in this way. Most “bad” parents, though, will never have their children taken away, because what they do, though far worse, cannot be measured.

...
How many parents would never dream of spanking, yet would also never dream of sacrificing a Saturday afternoon to practise baseball with a struggling Little Leaguer. They ensure their children are dressed well, fed well, and have a decent place to live, but they spend almost no time with them.

What does more harm? Spanking children, or simply ignoring them? One we can measure. One we cannot.

...And what I didn't mention in my column is that the one thing that universally seems to hurt kids is their parents getting divorced. But you don't see the UN labelling that as abuse, do you?

I don't think they're as interested in protecting kids from honest harm as they are interested in controlling how people parent.

Kids need limits at October 13, 2006 08:58 AM

Thanks for that story, and bless you!

The most amazing thing has happened in our society: The more we talk to kids (thanks, UN) about non-violence and the need for them not to bully others, all the more violence and bullying take place.

'Know why? Not hitting and not bullying others is what you learn about at home, from your family, not at school. If a kid has reached school age and is still unsocialized by his/her family/parents, then forget about the idea that the teachers at school are somehow going to be able to get their attention long enough to imbue "anti-violence" and "anti-bullying" into their addled psyches.

What is most needed around all of these "respect" issues is societal support of a parent at home to care for their own small children. When you're home with your kids 24/7, you are highly motivated to make sure that they are not violent, that they do not bully others, and that they say "please" and "thank you," etc.

By and large, if you're home with your very small children, by the time they get to school they KNOW how to behave. They're not likely to haul off and wack another child because they know what the consequences are. They've been taught by their mom or dad that this is unacceptable behaviour.

It's time to be scared, to be very scared about what is being unleashed on our society because of mush-brained thinking at the UN, at Boards of Ed., in the MSM, about children and discipline. If we want our kids to be non-violent, then we have to discipline them and introduce them to logical consequences of their behaviour. We're a long way from either.

Seeing as, in society at large, in our schools, and in too many homes, there are no logical consequences for violent, anti-social behaviour--only lectures on not bullying and non-violence (yeah, sure; grade two kids are really convinced by our talk)--we're going to see more and more of it.

A parent in the home of a small child is pretty much the antidote to this problem, but we have no stomach or balls--no will, if you will--to either admit this or to support and encourage it.

To quote Leonard Cohen:

I've seen the future
And it is murder.

SheilaG:
First posted at Mark Peters' site:

I wrote a column about spanking during that Aylmer case a while ago, and the thoughts seemed appropriate here:

If spanking with a rod in and of itself really were horrible enough to warrant removal from a family, then my husband should have been taken away from his parents, my mother should have been taken away from hers, and likely every person you know over the age of 35 should all have been placed in state orphanages rather than being subjected to their horrible parents.

Does spanking really rank up there as one of the worst things you can do to a child? I think it’s getting all the attention it does because it’s easily quantifiable: you either did it or you didn’t. Because it’s easy to measure, it’s theoretically easy to remove children from parents who do discipline in this way. Most “bad” parents, though, will never have their children taken away, because what they do, though far worse, cannot be measured.

...
How many parents would never dream of spanking, yet would also never dream of sacrificing a Saturday afternoon to practise baseball with a struggling Little Leaguer. They ensure their children are dressed well, fed well, and have a decent place to live, but they spend almost no time with them.

What does more harm? Spanking children, or simply ignoring them? One we can measure. One we cannot.

...And what I didn't mention in my column is that the one thing that universally seems to hurt kids is their parents getting divorced. But you don't see the UN labelling that as abuse, do you?

I don't think they're as interested in protecting kids from honest harm as they are interested in controlling how people parent.

That message cannot be said enough to my way of thinking.Well said. I might add as well, being a parent , male or female is a learned behavior.
No onme is born with aparenting gene.

For the good reason all children are individuals & different. There is no manual & never will be.

For any Government to say they have an all imclusive plan or better way to help children is ludicrious by its very nature.

Did,t we just have Dion have to cough up that he would have allowed Canadians to die even if he knew a drug was okay unless its was approved. The idea of any polity raisng drones is chilling in the extream.

Kids Need Limits: You are a hero! Your story is inspiring and you deserve the greatest respect for the difficult road you chose. I thank you with all my heart. Bless you!

I'm a teacher. I have to stare down admin. in order to discipline my students. Rather than supporting my efforts to "carrot and stick" my most egregious offenders, admin. usually second guesses me, questions me, and almost always, lets the kid off. E.g., A student of mine in grade 5 threatened another with a lethal weapon. The weapon was confiscated and the child given a recess detention. I heard nothing more. When, a couple of weeks later, I inquired about further consequences, I was told there hadn't been any. I was also informed that admin. was waiting for the mother to pick up the weapon because it was the student's property. All the board rubrics to deal with this kind of incident were ignored. I'm not kidding. It's a bloody scandal. (And, guess what? Unless a kid does something actually illegal--and a lot of good that did me!--I NEVER send my students to the office. Then the downloading begins: What is my culpability in the behaviour and what more can I do to "correct" it? Obviously, I haven't done enough so far.)

Generally, parents like Kids Need Limits and teachers like me are fighting a losing battle. I think it's time to be very scared. The Islamofascists and our own home-grown-and-school-approved barbarians have got us covered. Hands up!

Odd that the UN takes a bold stand against parental spanking, but fails to address state institutionalized stonings, honor killings, rapes, shreddings, manufactured famine and the other trappings of tyrannical dictatorship. All are in complete contradiction of the UN Charter.

I wish more people would read the UN Charter. The UN is supposed to promote human rights, equality under law, freedom, and democracy. It's supposed to oppose oppression, compulsion, and tyranny. Now you tell me... Liberals???

Everyone should READ the report. There is some good in it as well as some bad.

It is here: http://www.violencestudy.org/

My problem with these reports is that we do a VERY good job with a violent father or step-father, while doing a VERY bad job with a violent mother or step-mother. This difference is so stark and clear that it is in and of itself our biggest threat to children.

We MUST stop violence, there are very good reasons to do so. Stopping violence means that we MUST force the governments and social service agencies to treat all offenders the same way.

As many say here, we must also DEFINE violence in clear and unambiguous ways.

How many *famous* people and celebrities have gone on talk TV or Radio, or written articles saying how they were abused as children. Rosie O comes to mind and there have been numerous others. Every time someone came out, my grown kids would call and blame me for their not being famous, as they were not abused as children. LOL.
So what is it, abuse or not to abuse to gain success. Even Oprah has said she was sexually abused as a child. Why do we have to know that.

Is this *Save the children from parents fund* anything like the;

*Save the children from Any benefit of the Oil for Food fund*? = TG

This just proves just how evil the UN is its the most antifamily bunch around its time to get us out of the whole rotten UN

I had one lickin in my life. Parenting is legal beating kids isn't.

90% of prisoners in jail male or female were abused sexually or physically or both.

Most strappings in school was an violent outlets for teachers not to help the child.

Parents sometimes can lose control. If you're scared of "losing it" on your child keep your hands off of them. Go for a time out.

Tell me how many drinks can I have before driving?

Imagine the cops advertising that it was OK to have two drinks every ninety minutes to remain below the legal limit. Yup, that'd be a great idea, no one would use that in court to defend themselves after killing a bus load of children because they were hammered behind the wheel. The cops line has to be if you drink at all then don't drive. btw- If you are ever pulled over and asked if you've been drinking, answering affirmatively in even a vague way (I had a beer 5 hours ago) should get you in the back of a cop car, although it probably won't because most cops have good discretion, as we would hope would be the case when applied to the corporal punishment laws.

I also was strapped once in school when someone spray painted the boys washroom stalls and the principal decided that since no one would step forward that he would strap us all, explain that, moron.

If the UN said anything else, it would leave too much room for individual interpretation, which would lead to deaths and then to parents using the corporal punishment guidelines as a legal defence, the story of which would then end up here on SDA in some lame post criticizing the UN for having publish guidelines. Fact is, the UN can't do anything that SDA will support because it seems that opinions here are attached to the people or organizations that give them with no consideration of the subject itself.

I've spanked my kids and it's pretty much obvious what amount of force is too much. I have found it to be a very ineffective form of punishment, they don't seem to care about it so much and it hasn't proved a deterrant at all. Taking away the computer mouse or other removal of priveledge is far more effective.

Some parents dont how much force is too much until it's too late.