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Open suggests: Radical Activists are supporting extremists ?? Why ??

How many have heard of Patrick Moore ?? Canadian, co-founder of Greenpeace International. Had a falling out with the extremists in the early 80s. Founded Greenspirit.com, a very sucessful and resonable environmental org.

Was slandered by Scientific American Magazine for telling the truth.

Was slighted by Prince Philip, who latter apologized in writing.

I believe Patrick's article,

http://www.greenspirit.com/key_issues.cfm?msid=34 , Hard Choices for the Environmental Movement, that he wrote in 1994 was bang on the money then and today explains what Democracy around the world is up against. Even though I have been a News Hound all my life, I did not ever see any thing about Patrick Moore's Battle until, ... you guessed it, THE BLOGS !!

Terrorists "preferred that the items be purchased in Alberta, to save paying taxes."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060828.HEZBOLLAH28/TPStory/National

In the last 150 years, the Dutch have become the tallest people on Earth — and experts say they're still getting bigger. It is a tale of a nation's health and wealth.
...
With their protein-rich diet and a national health service that pampers infants, the Dutch are standing taller than ever. The average Dutchman stands just over 6 feet, while women average nearly 5-foot-7.
...
The Dutch were not noted for their height until recently. It was only in the 1950s that they passed the Americans, who stood tallest for most of the last 200 years, said John Komlos, a leading expert on the subject who is professor of economic history at the University of Munich in Germany.
...
In 1848, one man out of four was rejected by the Dutch military because he was shorter than 5-foot-2. Today, fewer than one in 1,000 is that short.
...
Height appears to come naturally with the territory. Two thousand years ago, the men of the Low Countries stood about 5-foot-9 — tall for the age — and were enlisted as guards for the Roman emperor, Maat said.

Average heights declined over the next 1,800 years as food supply failed to keep pace with population growth and people moved into disease-ridden cities, said Maat.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060915/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_tallest_people

Yup, that Club Gitmo, sure seems like a hell-hole, the guys are treated so bad they're even putting on weight. Oh the horror. I thought Nick Berg was treated bad, but these guys you really have to feel for.

Long time readers of this blog might remember some people taking Kate to task for using the term "Newfie" in a post. To them the term was pejorative and a slur.

Well, the government of Alberta has just approved the use of "Newfie" on a licence plate. Apparently, it's a term of endearment. Let the redneck bashing begin.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2006/09/14/licence-newfie.html

For more than two decades, the slang term for Newfoundlander has been on the list of words restricted from licence plates in Alberta.

But after an appeal from a Calgary man, the government changed its minds.

Government spokesman Eoin Kenny said the director of motor vehicles recently decided the perception of the term Newfie has changed over the years.

The word is now considered a term of endearment, he said Thursday.

"We based our decision on input from folks," Kenny said. "People spoke and we listened and we decided to act."

so the prisoners at Guantanamo receive free dental? health? maybe all american citizens should become "combatants".

George Carlin answers - Who Controls America?

vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=935607276

craig, until the guantanamo prisoners have a community Heroine House, Socialists will contend the US is in violation of Geneva Conventions.

Kate, the link at top to thepeoplescube just about KILLED ME.

Seriously, bout laughged myself dead from:
***Experts to compile list of things that don't offend Islam
***Big Oil and Big Tobacco to Spinach: welcome to the club
***Pentagon threatens to escalate interrogation techniques from torture by Chili Peppers music to torture by Yanni; Al Qaeda surrender expected by 5pm

Today was my birthday, which I've struggled to pretend to celebrate five years now. Today was beautiful. Perfect weather and much beloved family and friends. This hilarious site just topped it off and helped allievate those residual feelings of guilt. I laughed so hard it felt liberating. A sincere thank you.

Ten Conservative Principles

by Russell Kirk
Adapted from The Politics of Prudence (ISI Books, 1993). Copyright © 1993 by Russell Kirk. Used by permission of the Estate of Russell Kirk.

Being neither a religion nor an ideology, the body of opinion termed conservatism possesses no Holy Writ and no Das Kapital to provide dogmata. So far as it is possible to determine what conservatives believe, the first principles of the conservative persuasion are derived from what leading conservative writers and public men have professed during the past two centuries. After some introductory remarks on this general theme, I will proceed to list ten such conservative principles.
.......

First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order. That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent. ...-
http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html

Six Nations Under US-Canada Investigation For Human Smuggling & Terrorist Links

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/09/six-nations-under-us-canada.html

There's apparently much more to "Six Nations" than meets the eye.

Has it occurred to anyone else that maybe we should just go ahead and surrender? I hate to sound defeatist and I know that it is wrong to be a fatalist. But, I just can't see any way around the inevitable slide into our own civilization's destruction.

Ancient Rome fell in much the same manner as we are heading. Barbarians all around. The empire's "intellectual elite" refused to acknowledge that it was a real problem. They felt that, if you just placate the small and containable groups of barbarians, the problem will go away. They believed that their society was indestructable.

We all know what happened to Rome. And I am very afraid that that is what we are facing today. Sure, there are lots of conservatives out there who see the problems and recognize them for what they are. But, I don't see how any of us can ever be in a position to do anything about it. Look at our society. In BC, two homosexuals have been granted the right to ensure that the school curriculum has enough material praising gay people and their contribution to society. They have received assurances that there'll be "tough limitations on parental rights" to have children sheilded from this material.

In Quebec, children are taught at the fourth and fifth years of school the importance of paying their taxes and contributing to the government for "social jusitce".

Just a little while ago, someone here mentioned that in 1991, some Grade 2 teacher in Toronto had her students create a bunch of "No Blood for Oil" placards and then took these kids on a "field trip" to the US Consulate to protest.

If my child were exposed to any of this, I would (quite righteously, I think) freak out. But, no matter how righteous I (or other conservatives) might think I am, the fact is that, if I freak out and show any form of civil disobedience, I will be the one who is thrown in jail (as an "intolerant [something]-phobe".

And I can do nothing. And this isn't the kind of stuff that people get motivated into a revolution over. The rights of the individual have been all but revoked by society. They don't recognize our rights as individuals anymore, but they are good and separating us and attacking us as individuals. And as long as they attack each one of us as individuals, we are doomed because we feel no motivation to do anything about it.

We have just seen the open craziness of the Islamic world - attacking churches and making open threats because the pope quoted a 14th century emperor - no one mentions that his speech spoke of other religions using their influence to justify violence. And the statement from Pakistan that essentially says, 'Call Islam tolerant or else we'll kill you.' And no one is motivated to rally against this insanity.

My best friend, who lives in the US and is as conservative as any of us, told me recently that, at his work place, all people are being forced to take "culteral diversity and sensitivity training" - even though there have been no reports of any mistreatment or bad thoughts expressed by any employees towards any employee or cultural/ethnic group. Meanwhile, at his hockey club, they are being forced to declare themselves a "gay-friendly league"...even though they never had the designation of "gay-hostile league." Of course, if he speaks out about the lunacy of the "sensitivity training" at his work, he'll be branded a "racist" and lose his job. If he speaks out about the craziness of having to declare his hockey club "gay-friendly", he'll be branded as a "homophobe" and be kicked out of the association. Just like him, the majority of people at his work and hockey-club feel that this is all over the top. But, each knows that they will be made an "example" of if they dare resist. They attack the individual and keep the group in line as a result.

I confess, in my friend's shoes, I would feel the same fear and would keep my mouth shut too. And that is the power that the current (Islamic) barbarians have over us. The left, as the 'enemy within', keeps us in constant fear while the barbarians use our fear of looking intolerant and being punished on an idividual basis to manouvre themselves into a better position from which to strike us. Most of us (myself included) don't get publicly angry about seemingly minor issues (like "gay-friendly" designations or "sensitivity training". We view it as an aggravation - but one that we can tolerate for the sake of keeping our jobs/hobbies or whatever. That is exactly where the leftists have it all over us. They take us apart a small piece at a time. Faced with having to take some "training" that they didn't like, a leftist would quit their job, claim that they were forced out because of their beliefs/orientation, sue, and demand government compensation. Since the media, government, and laws (both here and in the US) are slanted towards the left, they will get away with it. The idea of "choosing your battles carefully" is a concept unknown to the left and (for that matter, the Islamofacists). It is our very respective natures that gives the nutbars their power and influence over us. So why not just give up?

I am someone who believes that you shouldn't complain unless you have a solution to propose. But, I am breaking my own rule here. Because I don't have anything to offer. The only logical solution is to break North America into two. The leftist, "gay/minority/terrorist-friendly" crowd who believes that the colour of your skin or your sexual orientation is more important than the content of your character and those who feel that government intervention should be the norm instead of the exception can live in one section. Meanwhile, those conservatives who accept all people but expect them to perform and be productive regardless of these superficial traits in the other. But, of course, even I will admit that that is outlandish and crazy. No one really feels that the liberal next door should be denied the right to live in the same society. And I am not an anarchist...so, I accept that this will never happen.

So, what will happen? I don't see any alternative except to accept that our civilization is doomed. Maybe I can take some solace in believing that this is just the natural cycle for a civilization. Maybe civilizations are like trees...if they aren't cut down early, they just eventually die and become fertilizer for a new kind of civilization. Maybe that's what Rome was destined to be all along. Maybe we are just witnessing the first steps towards our own inevitable societal demise. Maybe leftist liberals and the NDP should be looked at the same way we look at an incurable virus...you can't really "hate" it because it does not have the intelligence to be hurt or have any remorse. But, the virus exists and does what it does because that's its nature. It may be dumb and have no useful purpose...but it still has a will to survive and overpower its host.

So, if we accept that it is inevitable, then I guess the scariest part is that Rome didn't exist in a nuclear and WMD world and we do. That will likely make this civilization's demise a lot more messy.

They say that a crazy person doesn't actually think that they're crazy. They think that they're normal and the rest of the world is nuts. It's times like this when I feel I must be crazy.

CANADAs homegrown terrorists have already shown themselves in Caledonia.

Six nations connections to smuggling are just the tip of the iceberg. The protected crime pockets on the reserves the police have just ignored.

San Francisco's city and county government (SF is its own county) won't accept free wi-fi for SF; they want to be paid:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/16/MNG30L6VOC1.DTL

Full disclosure: I live in Mountain View, where Google is located, and where we all have free Google wi-fi, as the story notes. I don't, however, have any financial relationship with Google.

"n the last 150 years, the Dutch have become the tallest people on Earth — and experts say they're still getting bigger. It is a tale of a nation's health and wealth."

Yeah, bob. Poppycock.

Its a reflection of controlled breeding within a population that does not readily outbreed. While not quite in-breeding, culturally close. Its called hybrid vigour.

Waiting two hours for treatment a homicide? A good example of why coroner's juries may large be a gross easte of time and money.

Gross negligence causing death perhaps, but in this instance, hardly a homicide.

I don't know, but it seems to me that making rules for gangs in Winnipeg is akin to vancouver's shooter's haven. "Excuse me but if you wait until I'm over there in the next block and out of the schoold zone then you may continue with your drive by." or "Yo bitch, you gots the money 'cause I got your fix right here. By the way, gotta sign this here waver sayin' you ain't knocked up or nuthin."

***NEWS FLASH***

Global warming attested to causing Solar Flares on the Sun...

Bush blamed for finding more oil in Gulf of Mexico.

Hybrid technology now put back 100 years as a result.

A Look Behind The Black Curtains: Understanding The Core Missions Of Special Operations Forces

Canadian Military Journal ^ | Spring 2006 | Major Tony Balasevicius

A Look Behind The Black Curtains: Understanding The Core Missions Of Special Operations Forces

by Major Tony Balasevicius

Introduction

In the aftermath of the 11 September 2001 (9/11) terrorist attack against the United States, Special Operation Forces (SOF) organizations began to play increasingly important roles in military operations throughout the world. More importantly, as in the case with Afghanistan, they have proven adaptable to changing circumstances. For example, despite having as few as 300 soldiers on the ground, SOF teams were able to rally unorganized and rival anti-Taliban opposition groups, and to focus the efforts of the Northern Alliance, which eventually defeated the regional Taliban forces. The contribution of SOF proved extremely effective, as Kandahar fell only 49 days after these forces became involved directly in operations. ...-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702636/posts

"A coroner's jury has declared the death of a heart attack victim who spent almost two hours in a hospital waiting room to be a homicide."
Note to USA: Please send the Jury to Canada, our notorious health system needs a few 'system' defenders charged.

The People's Cube is one for the alltime favorites list on everyone's computer.
Love it.

A death in a hospital waiting room in the US of A? Isn't there some way we can blame Tommy Douglas? Or at least Jimmy Carter?

Warning: see comments at Free Republic before proceeding.

911 Raw News Videos - compiled ebook

Various News Broadcasts ^ | Sept 16, 2006
911RawNewsVideos is a compiled ebook with some familiar and some rare videos that chronicle the attacks of September 11, 2001. This ebook requires Windows. It is a standalone, self-running file. It does not install anything. To remove it, simply delete the file. Filename: 911RawNewsVideo.exe Filesize: 156,959 KB [153.28 MB compressed on Megaupload] Format: executable standalone ebook Link for download:http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0L

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702676/posts

Tomax7,

I knew you were a comedy writer. Thanks, I enjoyed that. =TG

Poll at www.vivelecanada.ca:

The NDP has become Canada's first major political party to call for a withdrawal of the country's troops from Afghanistan. Do you think Canadian troops should be withdrawn?

Yes/No

Below is a screen that MicroSoft pops up after an error in the Opera browser.

This raises a question or two in my mind.. . . Listed below.

==== MicroSoft screen message ====
Error caused by Opera's Browser
Thank you for submitting an error report.
Problem description
This error was caused by Opera's Browser. This software was created by Opera Software ASA..
Recommendations
Microsoft has contacted Opera Software ASA. about this error, but we have not received a solution. We will continue to communicate with Opera Software ASA. about this error and try to obtain a solution from them.
In the meantime, we recommend that you contact Opera Software ASA. directly for support or product updates to help you resolve this error.
Opera Software ASA.
If you are unable to fix this problem and continue to receive errors, you can also uninstall this program.
+ How to remove a program
To remove a program using the Category or Classic View in Control Panel, follow these steps:
Using Category View
Click Start, and then click Control Panel.
Click Add or Remove Programs.
Under Pick a task, click Remove a program.
In the list of installed programs, select the product you want to remove, and then click Remove or Change/Remove.
Using Classic View
Click Start, and then click Control Panel.
Double-click Add or Remove Programs.
In the list of installed programs, select the product you want to remove, and then click Remove or Change/Remove.

Microsoft is interested in your opinions about Windows Error Reporting so that we can continue to serve you better. Please take a few minutes to complete the following anonymous survey.
#Take Survey

==== End of MicroSoft screen message ===

ht tp /oca.microsoft.com/en/response.aspx?SGD=af70cea4-b333-41a0-affd-ab67ba23bb4d&SID=261

[1] Is this a software error or a Windows compatibility problem that could be solved with a big fat payment to M$ to buy compatibility? [ a licen$e?]

[2] Is this an example of unfair M$ market practice that accounts for European lawsuits in the $350 million area being slugged out in the courts with M$?

I try to remain loyal to buying *North American* . I have always owned American made cars for example.

Continuous and constant news about unfair market practices lawsuits leveled at MicroSoft are causing me to wonder about M$ ethics.

It is curious that MicroSoft would suggest and provide instructions for removing Opera software that competes with Windows I.E.

Seems to me that Bill Gates has long since left Redmond offices and the staff is getting overly ambitious and aggressive. = TG

PS: The error was probably caused by one of the pages loading one element into a loop. Removed that one page from the twenty or so that load with the browser and all is well. No need to abandon a perfectly excellent Opera browser. =TG

So...um...Iberia...if, as George Carlin says, "The big corporations control everything", howcum they allow him to get up on stage an 'out' them? And....since the large corps are all publicly owned, and everyone with a mutual fund, or somesuch, has a piece of them.....why is it a 'bad thing' if they keep getting bigger? (I know I love it when MY investments grow).

Could it be that old George....to use one of his own phrases, "Is full of #@!%& shit"?

bryceman, I hear you. I'm a teacher. I need my job. I keep my mouth firmly shut these days on PC sensitive issues. The "equity" policies of my board would be used against me: Obviously, only PC dogma is protected--actually promoted--by these policies. It's a total crock.

If you've read my posts on a myriad of subjects, you'll see that I altogether agree with you. From my front row seat in the classrooms of this country for over thirty years, where I'm seeing a precipitous decline in civilized behaviour (altruism is virtually non-existent: what's THAT?)--my prognosis for the West is more decline and eventual destruction. Even without the Muslim threat, we'll soon enough be overtaken by the barbarism of our own entitled, amoral, living-in-virtual-reality progeny.

Not a pretty picture at all. And, to add to the toxic mix, most Westerners don't want to hear about this scenario at all. (I've been dropped from quite a few guest lists.) So, bryceman, I thank you for your powers of observation and your willingness to call it like it is. At least when we're overrun, either by the Clockwork Orange droogs we've allowed to proliferate in our midst or by our jihadist enemies, you and I won't be saying, "How did THIS happen?"

Even if the West should wake up from its "Sleeping Ugly" slumber, it may already be too late.

Microslop has no ethics. A company that constantly foists such poor software on the world for so long and not even be remotely ashamed, has no ethics. Gates should refund his billions to the millions who have spent countless hours of their lives they'll never get back, trying to recover from BSODs that blame you for the error, even as you sit there simply waiting for the OS to do something, anything.

Would CBCpravda have reported a winner if it was anything but.it has everything except happy faces strewn about the story.

The controversial British film Death of a President, which depicts the assassination of U.S. President George W. Bush, has won the international critics' prize at the Toronto International Film Festival.

Death of a President, directed by Gabriel Range, was chosen "for the audacity with which it distorts reality, to reveal a larger truth," said a statement released by the festival.

The film is described as having a "unique premise, told in the style of a retrospective documentary, which offers a critique of the contemporary U.S. political landscape."

The festival wrapped up Saturday

From MSNBC: Al-Qaida joins Algerian group against France

... so not joining the war in Iraq really increased their standing in the eyes of terrorists.

F@#* TIFF (Toronto Film Festival). What a group of pretentious, navel gazing jerks. When the going really gets tough--see my post above--for which they are largely responsible, they'll deserve every indignity they get.

bob - height is not directly correlated with a 'health care service that pampers infants' and even a protein rich diet.

The Nilotic people in Africa are probably the world's tallest; I'm not aware that they have either services. Health and height are not directly correlated; the so-called 'pygmy' or San people of the Kalahari are short - and were quite healthy. Most certainly, diet affects bone density and health, but, there are lots of other reasons, many genetic and not direct, for height variations.

Bryceman, I'm not as cynical as you about the fate of Western civilization. First, the political control of Rome certainly ended, but that was understandable, as its geographic terrain was stretched too far for a centralist gov't. But the ideological, technological, engineering, etc infrastructures continued, moving into the church rule over these areas and, as populations increased, into national rule over geographic territories. But Western civilization didn't disappear; it flourished!

Western civilization cannot disappear or be subsumed within Islamic fascism, for one reason. The world population is too large. Islamic fascism is promoting a social and political mode of life that cannot support large populations. It rejects reason, individualism, entrepreneurship, science, technology, industrialism.

It promotes a peasant economy - look what has happened to Zimbabwe since it rejected industrialism and moved back into a peasant economy - Inflation is over 1,000%, people are starving. It would be the same in an Islamic society.

The only way Islamism could 'rule' would be in a world with a population reduced by about 5 billion and thus, not requiring industrialism. Industrialism, remember, rests on science, and science rests on reason..and reason rests on individual questions, analysis, the concept of progress - all rejected by Islamism.

So- it will be a fight, but, it can't happen.

ET, with all due respect, couldn't we in the West end up like Zimbabwe? A few overlords, with powerful weapons, who've taken control of strategic institutions and don't care how brutal they are (the Nazis and Commies come to mind), could reduce our society to servitude quite readily, especially as we don't seem to have the stomach to fight back. (Hey, we've ALREADY allowed ourselves--as bryceman has pointed out--to be in servitude to the jackboot of PC. Here. In Canada. I'm not making this up.)

Not to mention that our Muslim enemies are quite willing to be patient: Demographically, they'll outnumber us in a generation or two.

I think your optimism is quite misplaced. You seem to suggest that Western civilization won't fall because it CAN'T. As you've said many times, just asserting a proposition doesn't make it so. Iran with nuclear capability, aided and abetted by the many fifth columnists already embedded in Western societies, could easily decimate the West in very short order. What makes you so sure that a catastrophe of such magnitude won't occur? (I pray it doesn't, but I know that doesn't mean it WON'T.)

Of course, in keeping with your thesis, Muslim tribalism cannot effectively RUN a modern democracy: Actually, as you've pointed out many times, it doesn't want to.

However, Muslim tribalism can DESTROY modern democracies, which is a whole lot easier. That's what a lot of us are worried about. IMO, I believe you need to give a credible account of why, apparently, you aren't.

lookout, the reason I'm saying that the Islamic fascism cannot take over the world is, in a strange way, based on 'energy dynamics'.

I'm saying that the global population is too large for their type of social organization. Their mode of social and political organization could only function within a population reduced from, let's say its current 6 billion, to less than 1 billion. World wide. Now- to achieve that goal, the reduction of the global population by that ratio, ...how does that occur? And how fast?

Islamic fascism has no capacity for technology, for science, for a modern industrial economy. Therefore, it can't support a large population. It's a strictly peasant agricultural economy and political system.

The reason the current Muslims have large populations is ONLY because the technology is imported from the intellect of the West. But, if you set up a repressive Taliban style society, then, you don't have an industrial economy. Bang - it's over.

Now- will the world 'allow' the population to be reduced to one/fifth of its former size? How would this reduction be accomplished? And, maintained? Would all technology be lost? All scientific advances be lost? I repeat, the Islamic ideology is only operative, by itself, in a non-industrial, non-scientific mode. The world population can't be supported by such a mode.

The interesting thing in biological systems is that the system doesn't normally reduce from complexity to simplicity; it moves from simplicity to complexity. We are a complex global world. I find it impossible to believe that a complex system reduces to a simple one - and remains that way. Sure, we see that happening in Afghanistan under the Taliban. How long did that last? We see what's happening in Zimbabwe, where the people are starving. We see it happening elsewhere in Africe. But for how long, and worldwide?

I'm going by biological laws.

Thanks, ET. I hear you. I agree that the jihadis cannot RUN a viable, industrial society. We agree on that.

But, as I said, they can DESTROY. Indeed, the jihadis seem to be not only very good at that, but committed to it as well. Nuclear bombs are very effective at destroying, very quickly, what has taken civilization millenia to build.

To repeat: With the demographic advantage of large families, nuclear capability, and fifth columnists embedded in our societies, I think it's quite possible for the Muslim tribalists, later, if not sooner, to decimate Western civilization. Your thesis hasn't addressed this possibility.

lookout - as I keep saying, the end of western civilization would only be possible if the global population was reduced by about 80%. And kept at that level. Impossible.

Sure, the jihadists can decimate populations, but 80% of the world? - but they can't decimate western civilization. They can't operate an industrial economy. Without an industrial economy, the world population level can't be maintained; it has to drop by at least 80%. HOW is that to be accomplished - and without the world population realizing this and fighting it?

That's my point - 45% even 60% of the people of the world may be defeatist, leftist sophists, but not all are and those are the ones who will refuse - just as Churchill and Roosevelt refused.

I don't care how large the Muslim family is; that family can't support itself industrially. The only reason it is now doing so, is because it is using western technology. If you end that, and reduce the intellect of the population to doing nothing other than praying and the women doing nothing outside the house, and no science, etc - that population level can't be sustained.

You think that the Islamic fascists will, militarily, take over. I doubt that. You think that they will intellectually take over. I doubt that - because the world population is too large for their primitive mindset. Check out Zimbabwe; it has reverted to a primite economy and the people are starving. Now, would that happen worldwide? Would the entire world move out of industrialism and back into a primitive economy? No - not unless you get rid of 80% of the world population. How? And how long would that last?

So, I maintain that it's a fight, but, they can't win - because the world economy and demographics is now too complex for a simple organizational system. Complex organisms don't reduce to one-celled organisms.

From the bastion/fortress of the Conservative Party: MacLeans mag.

In light of the recent Montreal shooting, do you think the federal government should now maintain the federal long-gun registry?

Yes 7%
No 93%

http://www.macleans.ca/

lookout and ET:

First off, I wasn't trying to say that we would be taken over and ruled by Islamists. I totally agree with you ET that they lack the organizational prowess (by the very nature of their idealogy) to do that.

But, I am thinking more in the manner that lookout has indicated...that they can bring western civilization - when a strong majority of Western civilization is occupied by either leftists or those who live in fear of them (like most of us). If there ever comes an organized will to resist, then I am afraid that it will come too late. Heck, we're already seeing our society bend over backwards to placate these people. They openly say that their mission is to destroy us. We know that the terrorist extremists desparately want to go nuclear. Even if we reject this eventuality outright and assume that the low-cohesion terrorist groups won't make it to the point of becoming nuclear powers, we can't make the same assumption with Iran...or even Pakistan - if Musharrif should lose control in another coup.

I'm not sure I agree with your 80% figuring. It has always been easier to destroy than to create. And there are a whole bunch of wild-cards out there.

Imagine that a nuclear device of any sort is detonated on any western (or western-friendly)target. How do you see it playing out. I just don't see the US responding in kind. There's no telling what will happen with France, Russia, or even China. The enemy can afford to be a whole lot bolder than the west (US).

It's not that I fear a day when the west will be ruled by Islamic overlords. What I envision is the Islamists changing the whole world order. It would be kind of like a murder-suicide arrangement. In their zeal, they'll bring the current way of things to an end. Yes, it will dessimate (or at least significantly reduce) their ability to live - for the very reasons you stipulate. But, it will nevertheless change our civilization forever as well.

Like I said in my first post, I envision our society dying and becoming fertilizer for a new society. You say that Rome fell but western civilization didn't end - it flourished. That depends on your definition. I'm pretty sure that if you could bring a Roman from about 300AD to the present, they'd tell you that this (our civilization) ain't what they had in mind in their time...and not just because of the technology.

Well, that's what I see coming for us. 1000 years from now, intelligent people will probably be saying that western civilization isn't dead. But, I am afraid that the Islamists can sure make it a helluva lot different from what you and I know and hold so dear.

Bubba Watch:

Bubba blubbers; All over the Flag Willy blubbers. (Where's Hilly?) ...-

Tearful Clinton Escorts Richards' Casket

apnews.myway.com ^
AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Former President Clinton tearfully escorted a flag-draped casket Saturday carrying former Gov. Ann Richards into the state Capitol, where she will spend the next two days lying in state before her funeral and burial.
(unknown source)

If Ann Richards could, she would get up and kick Bill Clinton's weak, fake, stupid ass. That woman was a fireball that sincerely loved this country. Ann Richards and Zell Miller were the last vestiges of decency, dignity, guts, and common sense in the Democratic Party.

bryce, I am more hopeful than you are. Events will continue to occur and people will continue to react to events. This evolutionary process will ultimately disabuse most westerners of their naivete, and it will still be in time to take decisive action.

The world's strawman, GWB, will be out of office come hell or high water in two years, muslim extremists will continue thier throat-slitting and suicide bombing, stupid people will run out of foolish excuses, and self-preservation will eventually kick in. In the meantime we have men like Bush, Harper, Howard, you and me holding the line and advancing the cause as best we can. I will work out eventually. Too bad the dumbazzez can't get on board before thousands more have to lose their lives to convice them of the threat.

"'This isn't about keeping tabs on people,..."

Big Brother is shouting at you (UK CCTV cameras fitted with loudspeakers)
Daily Mail ^ | 9/16/06 | Daily Mail

Big Brother is shouting at you

Big Brother is not only watching you - now he's barking orders too. Britain's first 'talking' CCTV cameras have arrived, publicly berating bad behaviour and shaming offenders into acting more responsibly.

The system allows control room operators who spot any anti-social acts - from dropping litter to late-night brawls - to send out a verbal warning: 'We are watching you'.

Middlesbrough has fitted loudspeakers on seven of its 158 cameras in an experiment already being hailed as a success. Jack Bonner, who manages the system, said: 'It is one hell of a deterrent. It's one thing to know that there are CCTV cameras about, but it's quite another when they loudly point out what you have just done wrong.

'Most people are so ashamed and embarrassed at being caught they quickly slink off without further trouble.

'There was one incident when two men started fighting outside a nightclub. One of the control room operators warned them over the loudspeakers and they looked up, startled, stopped fighting and scarpered in opposite directions.

'This isn't about keeping tabs on people, it's about making the streets safer for the law-abiding majority and helping to change the attitudes of those who cause trouble. It challenges unacceptable behaviour and makes people think twice.' ...-
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1702955/posts

It seems to me, ET, that you have, quite unintentionally, answered lookout's question about the possible/probable demise of Western Civiclization when you say:

"Sure, the jihadists can decimate populations, but 80% of the world? - but they can't decimate western civilization. They can't operate an industrial economy. Without an industrial economy, the world population level can't be maintained..." In an earlier post, you also say, "Islamic fascism has no capacity for technology, for science, for a modern industrial economy. Therefore, it can't support a large population. It's a strictly peasant agricultural economy and political system."

Without my being in the least facetious what's to stop the world from becoming a 'peasant agricultural economy and political system'? By your admission, the jihadis can't operate an industrial economy, so isn't the simple answer that they just won't operate one, that we will be reduced to being peasants? Do you think that would bother them?

If Islamofascists use nuclear weapons against us and if, as has been suggested by lookout, the rapid proliferation of barbarism in the West and our retreat from those virtues that build a civilized society and the courage and determination to fight to defend our Western culture, what's to stop a major defeat? What's to stop our finding ourselves living in drastically reduced circumstances? The Muslims have become used to living "without technology," why wouldn't they expect us to do the same"?

They have declared their intention to destroy us. Do they care about technology? Do they care that, supposedly because a theorem asserts it, that a "world economy and demographics is now too complex for a simple organizational system. Complex organisms don't reduce to one-celled organisms"?

Not a chance. They would love to take us down to their level, no doubt their leaders using our brains to live in the lap of luxury while the rest of us live in Dhimmitude like serfs. Perhpas complex organisms don't reduce to one-celled organisms, but what about one-celled organisms reducing complex organisms to nothing, or to shadows of their former selves?

Look at what a simple virus or bacteria do to a complex system, the human body.

It seems to me, ET, that you have, quite unintentionally, answered lookout's question about the possible/probable demise of Western Civiclization when you say:

"Sure, the jihadists can decimate populations, but 80% of the world? - but they can't decimate western civilization. They can't operate an industrial economy. Without an industrial economy, the world population level can't be maintained..." In an earlier post, you also say, "Islamic fascism has no capacity for technology, for science, for a modern industrial economy. Therefore, it can't support a large population. It's a strictly peasant agricultural economy and political system."

Without my being in the least facetious what's to stop the world from becoming a 'peasant agricultural economy and political system'? By your admission, the jihadis can't operate an industrial economy, so isn't the simple answer that they just won't operate one, that we will be reduced to being peasants? Do you think that would bother them?

If Islamofascists use nuclear weapons against us and if, as has been suggested by lookout, the rapid proliferation of barbarism in the West and our retreat from those virtues that build a civilized society and the courage and determination to fight to defend our Western culture, what's to stop a major defeat? What's to stop our finding ourselves living in drastically reduced circumstances? The Muslims have become used to living "without technology," why wouldn't they expect us to do the same"?

They have declared their intention to destroy us. Do they care about technology? Do they care that, supposedly because a theorem asserts it, that a "world economy and demographics is now too complex for a simple organizational system. Complex organisms don't reduce to one-celled organisms"?

Not a chance. They would love to take us down to their level, no doubt their leaders using our brains to live in the lap of luxury while the rest of us live in Dhimmitude like serfs. Perhpas complex organisms don't reduce to one-celled organisms, but what about one-celled organisms reducing complex organisms to nothing, or to shadows of their former selves?

Look at what a simple virus or bacteria does to a complex system, the human body.

Sorry for the double post; it didn't appear that my first post had gone through: Only half of my little green indicators at the bottom of my screen had lit up... ;-)

Small contiguous and isolated civilizations can end due to a variety of events, but large scale distributed civilizations don't. Size and distribution matters. What they do do, is morph. Bryceman, your argument is unfounded in fact. Recent historical examples are the last two world wars, notably Japan's culture and society. In most respects it took the hit you are projecting, and survived, quite well. Changed some, but the roots are still there, and arguably, benefited from the events.
The Roman empire, while widely distributed, was thin - this was part of its collapse, and actually, it didn't collapse - it morphed. Words are important in this discussion: Civilization, society, culture, have different meanings in different contexts, and you can't be too fast and loose with their use, otherwise the discussion goes in circles with people not really talking about the same thing.

"What's to stop our finding ourselves living in drastically reduced circumstances? The Muslims have become used to living "without technology," why wouldn't they expect us to do the same"?"

If the events are severe enough we will find ourselves living drastically reduced circumstances. (That is our destiny in any case, only the timeline is uncertain.) All that will do is put us on a more equal footing, but it won't change the value structure. Survivability will modulate values according to need. You're kind of assuming that islamists will come out of these events unscathed because they are more primitive. Not necessarily the case. Many islamic cultures are basically subsistent where they are. Cataclysmic events of the type you are describing, will very likely reduce their capacity for survival as well. Western "civilization" has a disproportionate leg-up in resources, and that will make all the difference - significantly increased capacity for adaptation.

Well, Skip, the West's own citizens are already morphing towards barbarism, within our societies. And we have a deadly, self-declared enemy that's said it wants to destroy us, plus all kinds of fifth columnists within the citadal, ready to aid and abet the enemy. Oh ya, and a large proportion of the population in denial and not willing to fight back.

Whichever way you slice it, not a pretty picture. The longer these factors are in conjunction, the more dire the prognosis. ET wrote: "You think that the Islamic fascists will, militarily, take over. I doubt that. You think that they will intellectually take over. I doubt that . . . " I've suggested the possibility that they might.

Whatever the outcome, the Islamic fascists are bent on our destruction and, by the day, are getting closer and closer to being able to wreak mayhem and destruction on a large scale. Presumably, the West will then begin to seriously fight back. But things will be changed for the worse by then. A whole lot of rebuilding will be necessary, for which the West may no longer have the spiritual or intellectual stomach to achieve.

Left liberal/socialist/communists have achieved/built Utopia/Eden in .... no, not Sask..in Sweden. Amen, bro/sisses.

Hallelujah: Tommy Douglas's life was not wasted in/on Saskatchewan. It's arguable, though, eh? ...-

"Indeed, Toynbee went further, calling Sweden "the most successful society the world has ever known." ...-

Why should the world care how Sweden votes?

Published: 17th September 2006 10:55 CET

Foreign policy has been notable by its absence in this election campaign. But a defeat for the Social Democrats on Sunday would send a chill wind through the ranks of Europe's socialists, argues James Savage.

Asked by a Canadian journalist on Friday why Sweden's election matters to the rest of the world, for a moment I was flummoxed.
......

Indeed, Stockholm welcomes a steady stream of left-wing politicians from other European countries. They want to see how Sweden manages to combine high taxes, high welfare and high growth.

This is particularly true in Britain. As left-wing commentator Polly Toynbee pointed out in the Guardian last year, "this is a contest Labour is watching closely. Young Labour ministers have close connections with the Persson government, as they ponder how a long-serving government renews and refreshes itself in office."

Indeed, Toynbee went further, calling Sweden "the most successful society the world has ever known." ...-

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=4925&date=20060917

Skip,

Yes, you are right in saying that my vision is not founded in fact. You call it my "argument" - but, I assure you, I am not trying to make any kind of argument. I am sharing my concern based on what I see. I sure as hell hope I am proven wrong.

But, you are right, it is not based on fact...it is pure speculation...I don't think that I tried to represent it as anything else. If you meant to say that my concern has no historical foundation, I would say that you are right again. But, I don't think that history has anything to offer that comes close to the possibilities we face today.

Your comparison to Japan does not jive with me. Japan was a nation fighting for its national political interests (however warped they were) and was still a nation that could order its troops to surrender (and have them obey). That is not the kind of enemy we face today.

Furthermore, Japan was defeated by the US - a nation that has a long history of refusing to hold the conquered under their boot once they are down. That is also not the kind of enemy we face today.

Bryceman:

Several points for discussion...
First, I'm using the word "argument" in its debating sense - a thesis or point of view being advanced... no more.

Its a common perspective that things were "never as bad as they are now". This comes from how we experience the world and how we cannot truly know the past, unless we lived it. There is a balance of forces that exist between populations, be they "civilizations", neighbourhoods, species, families. The dynamic ebbs and flows with the availability of relative needs for survival. Like cold war deterrence and the stock markets, there tends to be a corresponding correction from time to time - WWII, WWI, all of the wars in history, the coming one with Islam. Like Japan and WWII, the west will use its preponderance of resources to maintain a balance, if pushed. Meaning that if islamofascists succeed in a nuclear event, you can, with a high degree of confidence, expect that there will be corresponding level of response calculated to end the problem, on as large a scale as necessary. Will it be messy? Sure. Will there be widespread suffering? Yup. Will it solve anything? For a while. "Civilization" in and of itself, is a meaningless term (ducking ET :). Civilization for all of us is what we do and believe in order for our immediate family unit to survive. When survival is easy, we expand the definition of civilization. When its not, we shrink it. As our populations increase, the chances of cataclysmic population events increases. How these events charactize will depend on what we think about "civilization" at the time. But in reality, there is little anyone can do about the sequence of life events at the "civilization" level. Accords are a very fragile, and largely untenable thing, over the timeframes of civilizations (some may argue they define civilizations...) Que sera, sera. Sounds fatalistic and it is.

Lookout said: "A whole lot of rebuilding will be necessary, for which the West may no longer have the spiritual or intellectual stomach to achieve."

The kind of rebuilding you're talking about is visceral, not spiritual, and intellectualism is a tool, not an oulook. Spiritism and Intellectualism will provide the context for the rebuilding. Takes generations to change the direction of those properties in a civilization. Cataclysm can accelerate the change of generations, but tends not to do more than re-define the boundaries of the existing spiritual and intellectual bases.

Stock up for the coming fight. You'll need it.