"I spent three delirious weeks with Kimveer"

Whatever the circumstances of this individual, he is certainly "disturbed" to do such a terrible thing.
It is obvious and apparent that "gun control" did nothing to spare those students, teachers and family of this person's horrible deeds.
Having been in law enforcement all of my working life {now retired}, I still can't see what drives a person to such an act. I kinda think that it is something in the way a person is raised and treated by society in general. If parents are not allowed to "teach" their children right from wrong for fear of a social worker and two policemen at their door and if teachers "teach" their own biased opinions and governments and do-gooders say that you can do no wrong but if you do, ... not to worry, we won't "punish" you, we will "rehabilitate" you, then we are doomed. We have failed miserably and deserve to have our asses kicked !
We need to lose this "political correctness" BS and start "thinking" again. THIS is what's lacking in our society today and I figure is the root of many of our problems.

I was wondering, with all the wounded that were being taken to hospital,why there were not more deaths.Usually,if someone is firing an assault rifle( and this is the key here) in a rifle cartridge calibre (usually 5.56 mm and up..)the severity of the wounds would have caused many more deaths(if not outright when hit..)

Then i heard the weapon the man was using was this

http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20CX4_Storm/CX4_storm1.htm

This weapon is more of a glorified pistol,and is magazine fed by pistol cartridges, in this case most likely 9mm.

We can probably thank this fact to the greater chance of surviveability of the wounds suffered by these children as this pistol cartridge is more underpowered than a comparible military cartridge, or civilian hunting cartridge.

I think it's dangerous to postulate social rather than psychological causes for this indivdiual's psychotic behaviour. That assumes that IF, we, the society did such-and-such, then no further psychological problems could exist within the human population. That's unproven, unprovable and probably false.

Yes, Quebec, despite its denials, is hostile to immigrants, and particularly those who are non-European and in addition, are not francophone! You can see that in the simple statistics on immigration in Quebec; it's the smallest ratio in Canada, and almost 95% are in one city, Montreal. You can see this in the statistics on employment of non-francophones and minorities in government, educational and other official zones - almost invisible.

It certainly would be difficult to get a job in Quebec, probably almost impossible within a professional field. He ought to have left. More and more young people are doing precisely that - leaving Quebec, because they can't find employment.

Multiculturalism, with its ghetto-inducing strategy, its isolationism, its rejection of inclusion, must be ended.
The gun registry is a Make-Work project for the Maritimes and has nothing to do with the protection of citizens. From what I heard, the gun(s) used by this individual were all registered. The registration did not put a 'freeze' on use of the gun.

From what I can read, and I haven't gone through his various postings, he was seriously, even clinically depressed. That, to me, is the reason for his behaviour.

G-G Jean: The multiculti Crap: Slice/dice it anyway youse wants; We are all visible minorities. See moi? Moi is black; youse is brown; youse is red, green, blue, cerise, indigo, ...

"Did you know that 80 per cent of Canadians say multiculturalism enhances the value of Canadian citizenship?

And that close to 80 percent of Canadians say they are proud of the fact that we are a multicultural country?

The majority of people’s attitudes have changed over the past several decades.

This is tremendously encouraging."

tp://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/multi/pubs/speeches/2004_03_18_e.cfm

Someone has left a tribute to the shooter,

"I've been to dawson college.. a real peace of shit school.. the ppl there are so superficial.. I acctually thought about shooting the school up myself..
thank you unknown guy with a mohawk.. I salute you! :)
hahaha run u coward pussies... RUN....."

ET says: "From what I can read, and I haven't gone through his various postings, he was seriously, even clinically depressed. That, to me, is the reason for his behaviour."

So, nature before nurture then, ET? That would contradict much of your past commentary here at SDA. And why not nature AND nurture, as the best available science would suggest?

It's not that I disagree, it's that it appears you disagree with yourself. I'm just genuinely curious whether you generally cleave toward social determinism or a biological determinism, and whether you think this is an either/or proposition as you have framed it.

"We can probably thank this fact to the greater chance of surviveability of the wounds suffered by these children as this pistol cartridge is more underpowered than a comparible military cartridge, or civilian hunting cartridge."

Kursk, there was a lot of luck yesterday, but at the ranges he was shooting, a 9mm is a devastating round, especially if it was a short rifle cartridge round rather than an actual pistol type cartridge. I haven't heard yet if it was a 9mm pistol cartridge or a 9mm "short" cartridge.

A 9mm round packs a significant impact at ranges under 50 meters ad can easily be one round kills

Lots of luck just with all the richochets that must have been flying around.

maz2: put me down as one of the other 20%. A multiracial society would be great, but a country needs some sort of homogeneity of 'identity', otherwise it's just a mish-mash.

This MySpace "tribute" author calling the students coward pussies is undoubtedly just that: a coward pussy. Probably a Goth-wannabe, "studying" liberal arts. You know the type.....frail looking, promotes his individuality by dressing like everyone else in this phoney "dark culture", probably excessive facial hardware and the standard issue tatoos. If you ever wanted to know who pastes the adverts for the underground punk bands on the light posts in the university areas, it's pseudo tough guys like this little puke. I'd love to see one of these masquera painted, iron deficient weasels thrown into a biker bar just to see how tough he really is.

Well Shaken, I was already pretty much convinced Kimveer was one sick puppy. Now you go and show us he has friends, Jeeeeezzz...

Gona have to teach my Lil 5-Year Old Girl how to shoot early and shoot often.

Fred..yes, sounds like it was the 9mm short..as a former CAF instructor,i can tell you that while luck was on the side of the kids,ballistics were also... a 9mm is not nearly as devastating as a full powered rifle cartridge at close range...unfortunately, both can kill.

However there would have been many more deaths had this deranged fool got his hand on something more powerful.We can only be thankful he didn't.

no, bob, you've obviously misunderstood all my posts, if you define me as a 'social determinist'. I'm not a determinist of any stripe, neither 'nature' or 'nurture'. Biological entities, and in particular our species, are far too complex to reduce them to determinism of any type.

All I'm saying is that he was, in my view, clinically depressed. As to whether this depression was caused by a chemical imbalance and/or personal factors, I obviously have no knowledge. But, to assume, as the socialists do, that IF ONLY we set up the Perfect Society, then, all would be equally perfect and no further evils could occur - is naive.

I'm just curious about those who are saying that this country needs to abandon its multicultural policies and that it might have been a factor in this case. What, specifically, would you change? I'm just wondering what people are thinking of when they talk about ending multiculturalism.

I'm certainly in favour of abandoning multiculturalism because it sets up homogeneous groups of isolate Others, rather than allowing people to act as collaborative 'neighbours' to develop a shared national identity.

As to whether it had anything to do with this young man's depression, I have no idea. I was reacting to the post (in French and English) which was referring to the verbiage of multiculturalism.

Yes, yes..the profile of this guy fits the Columbine teen killers and others...but what really is disturbing is that no one noticed these kids were troubled???? NO ONE noticed they were "different"??? And no...there is nothing wrong with being different..but follow me here.... ATTENTION TEACHERS,PARENTS, GUARDIANS AND ANYONE ELSE DEALING WITH CHILDREN/STUDENTS ON A DAILY BASIS--please take notice of these kids who keep to themselves, who often make inappropriate comments and who are just plain angry and agressive. This guy was 25 years old and people around him noticed he was becoming a loner. WHERE WERE THESE PEOPLE? I have no doubt there are those that knew this man are asking themselves if there was something they could have done to prevent this--and the logical answer is probably....Maybe this senseless act could have been avoided if someone had really sat down with him, told them they understood how he felt but that things wouldn't always be this bad. Did anyone ever do that? Yes, he may very well have been a psychopath, but he also very well may have been a troubled, self absorbed, lonely man. We'll never know.

him, precisely why I dug up the tribute and posted a screenshot of it and links to MySpace profile. I think it's a big deal to publicly admit that you have contemplated actually shooting up a school. Certainly, we should pay attention to that.

Prime Minister Harper:

“It’s impossible to explain and comprehend and I have no explanation for it. And, in a sense, let’s hope none of us ever get to the stage where we can understand it.'’

[…]

o Note: Harper is right and even if the guns were registered (which I have my doubts about) the Registry would have prevented nothing. On the other hand, had we had more investigators available watching for (and following up) the jerk’s postings on the net it might have been prevented. Unfortunately for us we blew our money on a false Liberal dream and the important thing to remember is that at the time we couldn’t correct the situation. Now we can and I think we should put the money into “cops on the street”. That’s my view and the police response yesterday shows what we can do if we stop believing in bullshit. ...-
jacks newswatch

Coyote, I couldn't agree more: "We need to lose this 'political correctness' BS and start 'thinking' again. THIS is what's lacking in our society today and I figure is the root of many of our problems."

Sadly, if you're a teacher of "the old school," you get very little support from too many administrators (principals or the Board), who are afraid of the parents. Many of the parents of the worst kids--the ones with a chip on their shoulders, an attitude the size of a barn door, potty mouths, the sneer-jeer-leer reflex--will not tolerate their little "Johnny" or "Janey" being reprimanded by a teacher, even if they've given the teacher the finger, have told her to shut up, or called her a bitch to her face.

I know a teacher who, after she had been called a bitch and sent the offender to the office for a "time out," went to do follow up with the principal and the student, only to be told by the principal when she asked that the student apologize for his behaviour, "Oh, Johnny's not ready to apologize."

The student, surprisingly, apologized to the teacher immediately. When the teacher later went to see the principal to find out why the principal would, in front of her--thus calling her authority into question--tell the student, in effect, that he didn't have to say he was sorry, the principal said, "I was watching Johnny and he had his angry face on."

Is it any wonder that kids are getting out of control? When the adults will not take responsibility for disciplining children and letting them know in no uncertain terms that certain behaviours are absolutely unaccpetable and that there will be logical--and unpleasant--consequences, which don't include being suspended for a day thus allowing the student to sleep in and play Grand Auto Theft while his/her colleagues go to classes, total chaos reigns.

And, you know what? In too many classrooms and schools that's exactly what's happening: total chaos and anarchy, with the worst kids having most teachers and principals over a barrel: the logical outcome of Trudopey's Charter of Rights. Forget about Responsibilities. The kids know their rights and they're pushing them, which results, in effect, in the worst kids and their often worse parents running the school. I feel most sorry for the good kids, because they get short shrift. If you do your homework and you're polite, you're left to your own devices while the juvenile delinquents get all of the attention--and BTW, have all of "the rights."

A student now can attack a teacher, throw a ball at a teacher, poke a teacher, swarm a teacher and the teacher has no recourse other than to retreat. I once asked a union rep about this and his response was, if a teacher is being charged by a student for even having defended his/herself it's not going to hold much water in the negotiations. His exact words were--and this is someone who negotiates settlements--"it doesn't matter what the student did, only what the teacher did."

Welcome to the new Canadian dystopia, A Clockwork Orange nightmare. I predict that we'll all have bars on our windows and barbed wire on our fences in a few years time. We'll need them. Too many young people, having received no disicpline at school and feeling utterly entitled to do and say anything they "feel" like, will figure that you don't need your two televisions, which you worked hard to pay for, so they'll just help themselves.

I wish I was merely being pessimistic. But I've been around the block enough times that I'm just reporting what I see and stating the obvious.

There are going to be disturbed & out right nuts forever. There is NO way to protect any society from an individual bent on his suicide while killing others.

Just think of the damage one car can do. Let alone all the ways from poison to Bullets & knives of all imagery.

Leaders of Nations know they really have no defense against elimination, except to hope the killer/s is dumb & there security discovers the plot. If one was willing to slaughter no matter what the penalty to themselves, than it next to impossible to stop them.

From my perspective most of this cheapening of life began with abortion coupled with Mercy killing & assisted suicide. The left has itself become a death cult, like the jihadists. Only they think of it as Quality of life not Martyrdom.

Now add in the moral equivalency mania, the emptying of mental institutions in the name of freedom (Yeah they now have the freedom to starve & act out there manias.). Than decry any classification of any psychological problem down. With this drum beat repeated daily by educators, corrupt politicians, even some Religious groups, & you have an ugly stew of death as liberator.

Almost like the Jihadists 72 virgins. Life becomes the disease, death the cure.

Than we have a Judiciary more concerned with there own entitlements, panting after power. Than breed a form of Pollyanna justice. As well the idea of judicial infallibility with only leftist dogma as its benchmark for all decisions. Which has proven barren if not murderous. This melded with the concept that society is the maker of crime not the individual. This is the result of these nebulous notions. Anarchy bubbling with individual estrangement. From the polity ,peers , parents or any real help. Religion has been regulated to suppression, while astrology is held in higher esteem. So no help there since its embedded in there minds from educates that its meaningless.

I might add the fact that there are no manhood rituals left in the West for young men, has also added to this ghastly recipe. One would think because every culture including matriarchal have them for a reason. Why has the west abandoned this important passage of life? Women certainly have thiers. Plus the feminization of the classroom, with young white males being stigmatized as the fount of all evil on the planet.

Educators always trying to undermine parental authority to replace it with moon bat theories of social organization. That have been proved wrong, evil, prejudiced, insane is too weak a word. This creates a caste system that exacerbates this to an even worse situation.

We wonder why so many feel disenfranchised from there own culture & society?

With all this assault of anti life philosophy, where surprised when this happens?

Just my opinion.

BTW, couteraient = they would have cost (babelfish probably didn't translate it because it was missing its circumflex accent).

I'd also point out with the Lepine shooting something that Christie Blatchford was the only one to write at the time, as far as I remember, because it was too politically incorrect to be touched upon: that despite being half Quebecois and perfectly bilingual Lepine was treated as an outsider because he wasn't French enough and so Quebec nationalism and bigotry played a role in his hatred and not just his abusive background. It would be interesting to compare that (pre-Internet) column to this shooting too. Can anyone get a hold of that old Toronto Sun column?

BATB is absolutely correct. As a teacher, I've posted, almost verbatim, what BATB's just said. him wants to be nice but is, I believe, totally naive: Tell the depressed young man, who visited havoc on the lives of his victims, that things won't always be this bad? On what grounds? In over three decades in the classroom, I've seen both a precipitous decline in student/parent behaviour and the powers that be caving over and over. I'd say, "Be scared. Be VERY scared." Things are not going to get better any time soon.

Right now, three REALLY bad things, in conjunction, are the Charter--only rights get centre stage--moral relativism--no sense of right and wrong--and the virtual reality of cyberspace--I can do the MOST outrageous things with no consequences: together, a recipe for utter disaster. (I think BATB and Coyote are on my wavelength.)

And those of us talking this way are largely ignored. People don't like to hear unpleasant things. So be it. But wait until it's not just hearing unpleasant things but being the actual victims of deranged--but entitled--madmen of all stripes.

I think things are really bad out there. This latest incident is just another glimpse of the mask of civilization and civility slipping off. Then we see the face of hate, madness, and raw violence, which lies very close to the surface and is a mortal threat to our very lives. (Complacency, an altogether too regular feature of Canadian life, is a deadly option.)

The barbarians are inside the gates. Here. On the streets of our cities. In Canada. Right now. I'm not making this up. (And there are many more to come. They're in my classroom now: not too big yet--but they will be.)

Revnant Dream, I read your post after writing mine. Very well said. I think you'll undersatnd what I'm saying.

Before the blood had even been wiped off of the floor, Wendy Cukier and her fellow harpies were gleefully smacking their lips and cranking up the old proaganda mill. Say goodbye to any meaningful gun-control reform in the near future.

This is a little off topic, but I wonder if the babbling, whimpering students who keep flashing across our TV screens are representative of Canadian youth or were carefully selected by CBC and CTV. Instead of thanking their stars that they weren't personally in the maniac's path, they come across victims in need of sympathy. And of course, their elders reinforce their victimhood by talking of "grief counselling". What is happening to our national character or, from a practical standpoint, what will be the reaction if we are ever faced with a major natural disaster (hello, Vancouver) or a serious terrorist attack? Makes me shudder to think of it.

Been Around The Block:

You hit the nail right on the head. This is something I see everyday, day in and day out. In my facility thankfully it applies to a minority, not the majority. While the bulk of the students know where the line is drawn, there are those who still try to push that line just a little bit further.

Welcome to my world.

lookout: "The barbarians are inside the gates."

If what you say is true then why are you (and every single person in the entire Canadian blogsphere) giving Immigration Minister Monte Solberg a free pass? He's arguably done a worse job than Sgro, Volpe, or Caplan ever did; at best, he's maintained the status quo with only cosmetic changes, check the data.

If you pro-war clowns would put a little well-deserved heat on Monte Solberg instead of cheering on the Bush/Olmert show nonstop this country might have a sliver of hope.

He lived at home with his mother. No mention of father. I think she has a lot of questions to answer, and not just “Why did you lend this loser your car?”.

Did no one notice anything strange about him? Like, you know, 25 years old and still goth and living at home with mamma? Like, you know, behaving strangely? Like, you know,his large collection of guns and ammunition?

Where was mamma hiding? Where was pappa?

lookout:

I do indeed. If it seems like I was raging against teachers I apologize. My spell checker changed Educrats to Educators.

A grand canyons worth of difference in my mind.

In fact I have sympathy for most teachers who are there to educate people. Hit from Educational Administrators who live in Academic castles. Propounding more & more intellectual fluffy theories based in absurdity, not reality. The only truly bad ones are those who want to join the education industry for ambitions sake. They could care less about children or there futures. Thankfully the majority still teach, with all the barriers. Do there best to instill some reality against this mountain of nonsense.

On the converse is the Parents as you articulately described trying to exonerate anything there children do, no matter how vile.

This itself expresses the moral vacuum of our times. One would think any parent would be ecstatic, to turn around bad behaviors, not encourage them. Such is our world Today!

The kids know it. There is no more security when there are no boundaries. There is only alienation with no life script of right or wrong.

No consequences of there actions immediately mean. As we are seeing now, those bad seeds planted are now sprouting with a new generation brought up by moral idiots.

I am just amazed. As much honesty & integrity have survived among the majority so far.

This killer is an individual who made the decision to murder. This is his fault alone. Not a weapon. Not teachers or parents. Least of all society. This is a product of moral equivalence.

When people are given license without guidance, responsibility without sacrifice. This is the result.

Sooner or latter natural law kicks in. Even small actions have great implications given time to work. The left created this 30 years ago & now comes the harrowing.

Bob, please feel free to write Monte Solberg. (BTW, I never mentioned immigration.)

And Monte Solberg's misdemeaners won't show up for a while. How about putting the blame for immigration problems where it squarely belongs, and has for decades? On the Lieberals.

wimpy canadian - I think there are two parents, and a lot of young people are living longer with their parents in this day and age; you can check that out in recent statistics and surveys.

How do you know that it wasn't his own car? Because he was depressed, doesn't mean he was a 'loser'.

bob- your comments about immigration are strange. What's your point?
And your comments about the war, and Bush and Olmert are equally wierd. What's your point and what do these comments have to do with this thread?

lookout's comments, in my mind, were based around a degeneration of civil behaviour, a focus by our society only on rights, while ignoring responsibilities, and an inability to differentiate not merely right from wrong but reality from non-reality. I don't, myself, view these as causal of this young man's collapse into violence, but, they are valid areas to explore when analyzing violence in our society.

ET: The first report I read said that he had taken his mother's car.

Todd,

I would end "multiculturalism," as a government policy.

I would till extol a multi-racial society. But one in which all accepted the same standards of behaviour and belief. And those would be Western Civilization. You like it here, enjoy. Too bad others.

ET,

I have only heard from the mother on radio, no mention of a father. Perhaps I have missed something.

The mother said that he drove off in her car.

Anyone who must have someone else to kill themselves to commit suicide must be a loser.

Zog,

Your post also speaks for me. I knew there was something bothering me about these, like, students, but couldn't, you know, like, put my, you know, thing, finger, on it.

http://hallsofmacadamia.blogspot.com/2006/09/who-could-have-known.html

In most of these situations all the people around the murderer are typically clueless handwringers wailing, "Who could have known?"

In this case, lots of people...

"I'm thinkin' maybe the pictures with the guns and the 10 inch bowie knife were a clue. Well, maybe that and his online journal."

Yup, Zog and Wimpy Canadian, anger's been given really bad press in the public schools in Canada. Funny thing, though: I've never experienced so many REALLY angry kids in my career as those I deal with now--and they're getting angrier by the year.

I told my students the other day that, after asking a student for civilized behaviour twice, and not getting it, I'd then probably be quite annoyed--and let the student know it. "Oh," piped up a grade five cutie, "but that wouldn't be nice." You bet it wouldn't, I said.

Expressing authentic emotion's been drummed out of our kids by PC propaganda and fictions. But emotions don't go away because they don't fit a political agenda. When expression of real emotion isn't allowed, the emotions find other outlets. They sure don't disappear. Our virtual reality culture is literally going to be the death of us.

Wimpy Canadian asks: "Where was mamma hiding? Where was pappa?"

Where, indeed?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but we in the West are reaping the maelstrom of both the two-income family and the State-and feminist-sanctioned single-parent family, where children are often neglected. It may be benign neglect, and not intentional, but it's neglect just the same.

We have too many directionless kids in Canada (and the U.S. and European countries), growing up without the benefit of parental input. Why? Because no one's home. Latch key kids are epidemic in North America, a main reason why things are seriously going off the rails. Many child psychiatrists have cited the anger of children whose parents are not available to them.

And before anyone accuses me of "being against moms who work outside the home or single moms," I'm not saying that moms with careers and single moms can't be great parents. They often are. More often than not, however, simply due to only 24 hours in a day, stress, and overloaded agendas, children are feeling the pinch of overly busy schedules and often find themselves alone.

Children don't do a very good job of bringing themselves up, but that's what we often ask them to do. Until we recognize that parenting is as important as--or, perhaps, more important than--high-end, let alone low-end, careers, we can expect to see a continued epidemic of dysfunctional behaviour, some of it psychopathic in nature, on the part of too many of our children. Despite "the experts" scratching their heads and asking "What went wrong?," the answer's really quite simple. The problem is, no one wants to talk about it. Neglected children is a taboo subject.

There needs to be some serious consideration of effective parenting, governments not levying inequitable taxes on one-income families with a parent home to care for their child(ren), a moratorium on feminist propaganda about women and family life, to name a few initiatives to help improve our children's lives, but I'm not holding my breath.

Great posts, Revnant Dream and BATB. I altogether agree. Thanks.

What really bugs me about what's happening to our kids is this: It seems to be OK to neglect our children and leave them with the consequent feelings of anger and bewilderment and an inability to express authentic emotions, etc., but it's not OK to ask adults to examine how their decision to be AWOL parents is affecting their kids.

Could they, the parents, bear any responsibility for their chidlren's anti-social, sociopathic, or psychotic behaviour? Somehow, it's considered "not nice" (as lookout points out) to point out that parents should be responsible for their children and to expect that adults will be adults, which means looking out for their kids--every day.

OY VEY.

BATB, right on. The Boomer generation is a group of underdeveloped "adult toddlers". They want what they want when they want it, no questions asked. A sign of maturity is to accept one's shortcomings and to deal with the negative fall-out. "What shortcomings? What negative fall-out?" bleat the Boomers. Official Canada's mainly populated by such moral pygmies.

Oy vey, indeed. And Kyrie eleison.

Well, at least he is dead. Too bad he did not kill himself earlier.

And as per CTV News all guns were registered. Chalk up another $2 billion likely stolen by Comrade Chretin's and Comrade Martin's governments.

I will be truly happy when both Chretin and Martin get charged with fraud. And no I don't assume it will hapeen in our BananaCanada.

Andy

Bob said: "He's [Solberg] arguably done a worse job than Sgro, Volpe, or Caplan ever did; at best, he's maintained the status quo with only cosmetic changes, check the data." ...-

Data here: Find "Monty".

Questions raised after convicted-killer Sikh given visa to Canada

VANCOUVER - A former high priest of Sikhism was denied entry to Canada two weeks ago because of his conviction in India for killing a rival religious leader, says a B.C. Conservative MP.

Ed Fast told the Vancouver Sun that Ranjit Singh - one of five jathedars of Sikhism until his removal in 1999 - should never have been given a visa to visit Canada, but that a mistake was made at the Canadian consulate in Chandigarh.
...
Hayer's son Dave, a B.C. MLA, wrote to Immigration Minister Monty Solberg Aug. 31 to praise the immigration officials who stopped Singh. ...-
http://www.paulding.net/bin/url.cgi/13406.3

"From what I can read, and I haven't gone through his various postings, he was seriously, even clinically depressed. That, to me, is the reason for his behaviour."

I'm a schizophrenic who also suffers from depression and I've managed to live with both illnesses for over a decade without shooting up any schools. My experience with the mentally ill (who make up a large number of my acquaintences and friends) is that you have to be an asshole to start with for the illness to bring out the worst in you.

The shooter was a big fan of violent video games, his favourite one patterned after the Columbine killings. Michael Moore derided the idea in "Bowling For Columbine", but I think that denying the linkage between violent video games, movies, and music and the resulting acting out, is similar to denying the link between smoking and cancer.
An article that I first read in Christianity Today around the time of Columbine is worth re-reading ... "Trained To Kill" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman makes some persuasive arguments about conditioning techniques used by the U.S. military on new recruits and their similarity to violent video games.
http://www.killology.com/article_trainedtokill.htm

I do think that society needs to be careful about what it bans, but as long as my kids live at home, even if that continues till they are 25 years old (heaven forbid) they will understand that there are limits.

Case in point (not scientific, I'll concede) about video games and conditioning/programming: A 42-year-old friend of mine, in a moment of insanity, bought her 12 year-old boy Grand Theft Auto, because she knew he was playing at his friends' houses and she thought it would at least be better for him to play the game at home for her to keep an eye on him...whatever. (She's a teacher and should know better...)

She decided for the first two weeks to play the game with him. She told me how shocked she was by the violence and mentioned that the fastest way to win was to knock cop cars off cliffs. She said there was blood everywhere (and I'm thinking to myself: Why are you letting "Johnny" play this game?) and that the game was pretty gruesome.

But the real shocker is how it affected her driving. She said she found herself pulling out to pass a transport trailor truck on the highway in a risky situation and, fortunately, stopped herself before there was an accident. She couldn't believe her brazenness and it frightened her. Given that she's a usually a very level-headed, practical person, I can understand why she was shaken.

Her comment: "I played the game for only two weeks, and look at the effect it had on me. Just think about the effect years of playing this game every day is having on our young people."

Good morning BATB, some interesting observations but then again we have to watch out for that "slippery slope" thing and social engineering. There is no doubt that this Gill character was one sick puppy. Whether or not banning violent video games, toy guns, goth or radical music would have made a difference, I honestly doubt it. We may be our brother's keeper but the responsibility should not be left to big brother. Should the shooter's parents be held responsible? Well, he was an adult and therefore assumed to be responsiblt for his own actions but one can argue that there could have been some influence on his psyche in the way he was brought up. After all, nobody I can recall ragged on Adolf Hitler's mom.

I am just surprised that the left haas not come out with banning all firearms to make sure this doesn't happen again. You know, like Britian where you never hear of weapons being used in criminal or terrorist ways [sarcasm].

And a truly disturbing thought: If we had totally left the responisiblity of child rearing (daycare) with the liberal government of the last decade, then what values would have been imparted on our youth? Honesty, integrity and creative bookkeeping???

Good morning BATB, some interesting observations but then again we have to watch out for that "slippery slope" thing and social engineering. There is no doubt that this Gill character was one sick puppy. Whether or not banning violent video games, toy guns, goth or radical music would have made a difference, I honestly doubt it. We may be our brother's keeper but the responsibility should not be left to big brother. Should the shooter's parents be held responsible? Well, he was an adult and therefore assumed to be responsiblt for his own actions but one can argue that there could have been some influence on his psyche in the way he was brought up. After all, nobody I can recall ragged on Adolf Hitler's mom.

I am just surprised that the left haas not come out with banning all firearms to make sure this doesn't happen again. You know, like Britian where you never hear of weapons being used in criminal or terrorist ways [sarcasm].

And a truly disturbing thought: If we had totally left the responisiblity of child rearing (daycare) with the liberal government of the last decade, then what values would have been imparted on our youth? Honesty, integrity and creative bookkeeping???

Oooops, sorry fer the double post... I don't do mornings very well.

I think it's dangerous to postulate social rather than psychological causes for this individual's psychotic behaviour.

ET - you are making a huge assumption about an underlying psychosis with Kimveer, an easy one to make too. Don't assume Kimveer was psychotic. I doubt he had an underlying major mental illness, nothing that would get him off on an insanity defense. My guess, he was a big indulged narcissist. He was angry and frustrated, someone was going to pay for it. I doubt he was incapacitated by psychosis from making ethical choices.

We live in the Age of Narcissism where the ability to deal with frustration has been diminishing in children. It's all about instant gratification now. Our culture reinforces this. Take a big immature man-child like this guy, add the reinforcing fantasy world of the Goth-Vampire club, some narcissist injury to his childlike ego, add the avenging lethal weapon and you've got the recipe for the Kimveers of society.

I suspect the rank and file of the Taliban and jihadis are over-represented with these narcissistic man-childs in the ME. I'd say there is a social component, or permission, to violent behavior like this. What makes him and his motives any different from any Death Cult thug?He's a rarity, thank God, for us, but, he'd be a garden variety monster among the jihadis.

On the question of parents being held accountable for the actions of their 25-year old children, I maintain that as long as your children live at home, they should be expected to obey the rules of the house. Did Kimveer Gill's parents know about the statements that he was posting on vampirefreaks.com? Did they know that he had guns and was threatening to kill people with them? If the answer is yes, then what did they do about it? If the answer is no, then why not?

Good evening, Texas Canuck. Thanks for your feedback. I didn't suggest "banning violent video games, toy guns, goth or radical music," though I do think that parents should be far more vigilant about what their kids are watching and playing with--not to mention what the parents themselves are watching, taking, and playing with!

As for your "truly disturbing thought: If we had totally left the responsiblity of child rearing (daycare) with the liberal government of the last decade, then what values would have been imparted [to] our youth?...": You're not too far off the mark. So many kids have been in substitute daycare in the past few decades, because so many moms hav been encouraged by the government to work outside the home, that we've got just the values that you'd expect: "who me?" "I didn't do it," "s/he did it," "it's not mine" (when asked to pick up garbage under their desk); "bitch," "shut up," "it's not fair" (when asked to do homework); "No," ad nauseum.

I'm also not suggesting that Mrs. Gill, Kimveer's mother (do we know who/where his father is?) be held responsible now for his misdeeds. I am wondering where she was during his most formative years, because I think the Jesuit's saying "Give me a boy till he's seven and I'll show you the man," is accurate.

On the other hand, I am with Phil L.: When my daughters are home from university for a weekend or for a summer, I want accountability from them. I need to know who they're with, where, how I can contact them, and when they'll be home. In the first instance, this is common courtesy, which my husband and I extend to them when we go out and they're staying home, and in the second, seeing as it is our house, house rules are to be obeyed.

Guess what? These rules have never hurt them. And who knows? They may even have prevented some awkward or compromising situations. We're always happy for our girls to 'blame us': "My parents won't let us..."

At any rate, they're both still speaking to us.