I haven't seen the full text of this speech, but this report suggests this was less a call for dialogue with Islam (a suggestion that appears later in the article), than it is advice to the faithful;
Pope Benedict stepped into the controversy over Islam and violence Tuesday, citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion.In a speech at the university where he once taught theology, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war - a concept used by today's Islamic extremists in an effort to justify suicide bombings and other attacks on the West.
Benedict's speech was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."
The German Roman Catholic Pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.
"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.
"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,' " he quoted the emperor as saying.
Clearly aware of the delicacy of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.
"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said. He did not relate the Persian scholar's response to the emperor.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," the pontiff said.
Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said the Pope was not giving an interpretation of Islam as "something violent" although the spokesman said the religion contains both violent and non-violent strains.
I find myself wishing this man were younger.
Update - Full text. Read it and judge for yourself.
With age comes wisdom... There is alot of people in the world that need to get older!
Way to go Manuel ... makes you want to become a Greek Orthodox.
Note to self: Take down the 4 minarets around Hagia Sophia after the reconquista.
A good speech, and very important that a world leader confront Islam on its ideology.
I'm an atheist, so I'm not into the 'godly intentions' and I view religion as an ideology, based as Benedict said, on both faith and reason, that melds people together. With the use of the authority of a metaphysical force, it inserts authority rather than individual choice, which serves to reduce diversity of thought. OK.
In my view, the Christian religion developed to function as a cohesive infrastructure as the Roman Empire developed. The RE, with its incredible technology of roads, water supplies, communication systems, normative laws, notion of the citizen, currency, economy etc, brought together disparate groups of peoples, previously isolated and who viewed each other..as Other. The Romans were indifferent to religion, and polytheism, a practice in small populations, was the norm. Monotheism emerges in large populations, to act as a unifying force.
Judaism could not work in the RE because it is a hereditary tribal religion. It does not focus on conversion. So, Christianity, a completely new religion, developed. I maintain it developed, not by intent of course, but by necessity, to blend together all those peoples. The unique nature of Christianity is that it is focused around the full acceptance of the Other. It is not a tribal religion but one based on the common humanity of all individuals. That's quite remarkable - this focus on 'we are all neighbours who love each other as ourselves'. And conversion is by choice - again, that focus on reason and the individual who wants to live with others. Remarkable. And a perfect choice, in the 4th c, for the Roman Empire.
Islam, I maintain, emerged as a social and economic reaction to the unifying force of the RE and its unifier of Christianity. Islam is completely tribal; it rejects the individual, it rejects Others (infidels to be killed); and it insists on the economic and political domination of all. By force. I view this as a pathological reaction to a situation where a tribal mode of life was losing land and power to an expanding trade agricultural mode of life. The pastoral economies of some peoples in the ME were being lost and Islam was its reaction.
Its axioms of life enforce a tribal society and economy. Its rejection of independent thought enforces a status quo; it has no capacity for thought, reason, questions, analysis, and no capacity for adaptive change. It completely rejects 'new ideas' for it rejects life, focusing only on maintaining that status quo, a pastoral peasant economy. And, since it rejects life, it glorifies death. It's a death cult; the only good things that happen occur after death.
The Islamic fascism that has emerged, as a result of this frozen society, is a violent and rabid death cult. Benedict is right to bring this out into the open, and I hope that more and more discussion will be out in the open, on this topic - that focus on violence and death that is an axiom of Islam.
Nice analysis, ET, but Christianity is merely Judaism with the Messiah come. Judaism was confined to the Jewish people for a reason (chosen people) to be the conduit for God's revelation and the eventual messiah. This designation is more a curse than a blessing (as you can see by the way the Jewish people have suffered throughout history). But Christianity was a growing force long before it was adopted by the Romans. It had already spread to Asia Minor, all the way to India, all across North Africa and throughout the various parts of the Roman Empire without any government adopting it as the official religion.
The path of politically correctness has led to the left accepting unquestioningly even touting Islam, which is against everything they purport to stand for.
Ya gotta love the irony.
enough
Muslims should remember that two other religions have their roots in Abraham. If two of the three have a similar view of the same God then the odd man out should question why they have a different interpretation. The other two live by the word of the same God who gave us the 10 commandments which includes "thou shall not kill".
Nice story ET, I'm not sure it is cpom[letely accurate. Particularly two things:
1. You ignore the "Western" Greek influence - remember the New Testament was written in Greek and the Greek culture still had influence.
2. Islam spread like wildfire through the mid-East due, partly, to a sense of alienation of a sectof Christianity, the Monophysites.
However, it's intersting to see how nothing has changed in 600 hundred years and Manuel Paleologus got it right.
dirtman - I disagree that Christianity is Judaism with the addition of 'the messiah'. The key difference is that Judaism is a tribal religion; you are a Jew, not by individual choice but because you are, genetically, a hereditary member of a group. Christianity ignores genetics and makes membership an act of individual choice. Nothing to do with any Messiah or with any genes.
Of course I'm aware that Christianity was spreading before Constantine's edict; that's why he chose it - because of that ability of inclusiveness.
wimply, you are quite correct to bring in the influence of the Greeks in western civilization, which is enormous, but my focus was on the religion, not the intellectual actions of man.
The Greeks, with their science, their focus on reason, on observation, on causality etc - are the backbone of the western intellect. I think that fit in well with Christianity, as the 'sociological' (sorry, dreadful word) system to meld disparate peoples together as collaborators and neighbours rather than evil Others.
Yes, Islam spread, and I maintain that it was a reactive rather than active ideology; it reacted against an agricultural market economy; it was focused primarily among tribal pastoralists - and, I think it probably gained strength from the serious error made in that 5th century, when the Christian religion became a political agent AND 'chose' the Athanasian rather than Arian interpretation of the trinity. The Arian permits diversity, the Athanasian insists on homogeneity; I think this moved ideology under the control of a centralist top down church and Islam moved into a political process to rebel against this authoritarianism. That centralism of the church lasted until the fresh air of the 13th, 14th, 15th centuries reformation.
2. Islam spread like wildfire through the mid-East due, partly, to a sense of alienation of a sectof Christianity, the Monophysites.
Wimpy Canadian It was also spread in no small part because if you converted you didn't pay taxes, many canadians would convert to scientology or being native tomorrow, if made such an offer. Taxes are not new, Jizya is a tax that only infidels/kaffirs pay in their countires. Imagine the liberal reaction if you added one here just for Muslims to pay?
It's spread at the hands of the sword is because of their good book,....
8:12 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
9:005 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...
9:14 Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
47:4 ...when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates...(as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah...
47:35 Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...
33:25 Allah sufficed the believers in fighting...
[33.26]...some [Jews] you killed and you took captive another part.
[33.27]...He made you heirs to their [Jewish] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden...
Small wonder that any country with Muslim immigration has terrorism.
Wow, at least he says it like it is, but is anyone in europe listening?
Who cares what the pope thinks or says??
Finally the Church opens its mouth. Has it finally noticed that it is Christians that are being systematically slaughtered in Darfur and Nigeria. Did the Church just notice the woman on trial in Indonesia for converting to Christianity. Anywhere the Death Cult colonizes, a significant number of persons of another faith are going to be die violent deaths or convert.
It is amusing that our social activist clergy - both Christian and Jewish - are still having ecumenical breakfasts and inter-faith photo-ops with the Death Cult's commissars. Avoiding any unpleasantries like the systemic mass murder of their coreligionists or their forced conversion, it must be very entertaining to attend one of these let's-all-be-friends little soirees.
Tolerance of intolerance isn't tolerance at all. It's suicide. And, it's homicide too.
Wimpy - right on. The Greeks shaped Western civilization more than any other entity.
ET said
"Christianity ignores genetics and makes membership an act of individual choice. Nothing to do with any Messiah or with any genes."
Christ and Messiah both mean the "anointed one"
This being the case Christianity have everything to do with the Messiah.
One further note:
God's method of revelation to the Jews was through the Law
God's method of revelation to mankind after Jesus (the Messiah) came is through grace. Hence the choice we have to accept it
Islam appeals to the base and carnal part of man - greed, lust, etc. It justifies evil through its concept of God. It has made its home among the ignorant and impoverished and must keep the faithful in this state, in order for it to survive. Because it cannot survive reason.
Apart from violent action, I see little ideological difference between an Islamic terrorist and a moderate Muslim, when at the core of their faith they both serve the same blood thirsty God and his mass-murdering, pedophile prophet.
Because of this root cause, it's near impossible for Islam to change without rewriting the Quran and rejecting Mohammad.
The concept of Islam may have also have its genesis in the rejected and illigitimate Ishmael. Due to his plight, generations of Arabs are still attempting to legitimize their race. So much so, that the writers of the Quran arbitrarily changed the already 1500 year old Abraham story, replacing Isaac on the sacrificial alter with Ishmael.
Wow, at least he says it like it is, but is anyone in europe listening?
Nope. They are post-Christian and pre-Dhimmitude now. One doesn't have to look much further than the Church of England for a model of groveling appeasment:
Meanwhile, Julian Bond, Director of Management and Communications at the Christian Muslim Forum, said the media had to take more responsibility for its coverage. He said: “I think the negative perceptions are there among many people in this country from all kinds of backgrounds. “You can pick up a paper everyday and read something about Islam, sometimes positive but sometimes negative, such as the searching of the Islamic school at the moment. “I think the media needs to think about the impact that their coverage has and try to be more even-handed.”
churchnewspaper.com/news.php?read=on&number_key=5836&title=Media%20is%20warned%20over%20its%20coverage%20of%20Islam
"Who cares what the pope thinks or says??"
A billion or so more people than care about your cowardly anonymous snipes, give or take a few million.
For me, I support what the Pope did in his speech above.
It's a way of reminding folks of the reality of Islam, which is that it is full of "evil and inhuman" dogmas/doctrines, which are taken literally by millions of Muslims, perhaps the majority, unfortunately (just look at polls of the Islamic world). And it is this "taking literally" which is the root cause of the conflict, wars and jihad terrorism we see today.
It is this fact which we must willingly accept in order to understand.
Of course, such acceptance is, for most leftists, one of the most painful, frightening things they could do, for to accept this reality would entail that they'd consequently simultaneously have to reject some of their own dogmas, such as the belief that all men and ideologies can be reasoned with, multiculturalism, political correctness, etc.
But eventually the left will have no choice but to turn against Islam. Their denial of the existence of evil and inhumanity within Islam and the Islamic world will be weakened to the point of collapse.
It will take many evil actions by the Islamists and continuing silence from the majority of Muslims before this will happen. But it can... after all, the left generally appears to hold great disdain, fear and loathing of JudeoChristianity. The way the left treats JudeoChristianity is proof that they can stand up to Islam, which they, as well as everyone, must.
The truth will set humanity free.
Daisy - I worked for one year in a psych unit at a maximum security prison. Islam is hands down a more comfortable fit with the most anti-social and violent among us. Islam's superficiality matches up well with macho male sociopaths. You never have to say your sorry. Prescribed rituals alone get you salvation.
No surprise, Richard Reid and Jose Padilla were both jailhouse converts.
Is it not true that some of the worst wars in history have been Religious Wars ?? Because they are unsolvable ?? Because they are just fighting over a belief ?? Pulled out of the air ?? Can't really get your hands on the problem ??
The Pope, rightly so, probably feels his flock is under threat by Muslims, some of who believe in death more than life. Very diffiCULT battle ahead.
"Is it not true that some of the worst wars in history have been Religious Wars ?"
Some, but certainly not most and perhaps not even many. I'll let others elaborate.
When it comes to this Jihad, holy war against the West, One must ask the question;
WHAT IS THIER FGIGG"N PROBLEM ?? Is it the Macho Guy's problem in dealing with the power women CAN have over SOME men ?? Hence the stoning, Burqas, women punished for rape, only in public with a relative. What is their problem ??
Did it drive the macho Muslims crazy to see the most powerful man of the most powerful country, being unable to keep his PECKER IN HIS PANTS ?? In the Oval Office, no less. Virtually getting laid on the desk, by a women without any clothes on, let alone no Burqua !!
World hasn't been the same since.
"Is it not true that some of the worst wars in history have been Religious Wars ?"
Death tolls from "religious wars" are a lot less than what many people think:
www.answers.com/topic/list-of-wars-and-disasters-by-death-toll
Being pope is not a job I would ever like to have and not just because of that celebacy thing either. Not only do you have millions of the faithful looking for divine guidance from God's no 1 man on earth, but as a world leader he has to carry the faith into the world political arena. Where pure faith and the teachings of Catholisism and how it relates to everyday life is difficult enough but to incorporate it on the global scene with a world of believers, non-believers, other faiths and those who just want to kill you is an impossible mission.
Unfortunately, in the past two thousand and six years, the Church has a less than stellar record when it comes to world politics. Such are the problems of being led by a mortal being. Can this pope make a difference in the world of today? I really don't know. To most people with faith he can get respect and depending on his message, he may make a difference but as so many of the commentors here make it clear they have no faith, to those people probably not.
From CJAD
3 critical injuries
several minor to severe injuries
Possibly three gunmen
ok4ua writes: "During WWII the catholic church did nothing about the death camps. ... Just a thought."
This statement makes a mockery of the concept of "thought".
ok4ua you should try to remove your head from your rectum and do a little research before you post on a topic. Was the Catholic Church blameless? No. But then again name another church that did as much for the Jews. There were many in the Catholic Church who risked all and many who paid the ultimate price for their heroic deeds.
JERUSALEM, MAR 1 (ZENIT).- After guarding Adolf Eichmann's diaries for almost 40 years, yesterday the Israeli government made them public. Eichmann, a Nazi SS lieutenant colonel, was executed in 1962 in Israel for "crimes against the Jewish people and against humanity."
Eichmann wrote these diaries during the months following his death sentence. They are especially chilling in their description of the way the Nazi regime came to the "Final Solution" against the Jews, and the way the extermination was implemented.
The pages are also very interesting in studying the Vatican's position on the persecution of Jews. Some people accuse the Church of having done nothing in October, 1943, when the Nazis began to deport Jews from their "ghetto" in Rome. However, Eichmann wrote that the Vatican "vigorously protested the arrest of Jews, requesting the interruption of such action; to the contrary, the Pope would denounce it publicly."
This is a confirmation of the thesis of those historians who have collected documents on the action undertaking by the Vatican to defend Jews during those dark years. It must be kept in mind that Rome was occupied, and that the Church was the only institution that had the courage to denounce the Nazi action.
http://tcrnews2.com/Eichmann.html
Religious "worst wars", meaning most intractable.
ET's comments about Christianity working well with the RE is a little erroneous when one considers the 2-3 centuries of persecution due to the fact that Christians would not give offerings to the Roman gods or specifically the Emperor who often believed he was a god. It is true that while the RE developed a framework to democracy, patronage to the gods did drop, but this was primarily in the Senate. The Emperor could still over-rule by manipulation and/or fear.
OK4UA: Who cares what the Pope thinks. While it is true that some may feel that the Pope is irrelevant to them personally, if you consider what was said, then the message is more than the messenger. If the head of any political or religious body had made the same statement it would likely have received some press. Heck, we have had to listen to Jack Layton and he has as much authority as my 5 year old. This Pope is an intelligent man, he is aware of the impact of his words in the Arab Communities. He is not irrelevant to them.
Texas Canuck writes of the effectiveness of this Pope in the geopolitical world. The Vatican is an active participant at the UN. Its diplomatic relations extend farther than Canada, though it is often at odds with countries such as China. In this case the Vatican Organization is separate from the Pope, in that it continues dialogues and negotiations whether the Pope speaks or not.
Penny commented on the fact that its about time the Pope/Vatican said something. The reality is that the Pope/Vatican have been quite vocal. The fact that we don't hear much of what has been said just reflects the effectiveness or our reliance on the MSM. Zenit.com shows all of the pronouncement and diplomatic communications happening through the Vatican.
Finally, B Hoax Aware...everytime their is talk of religion and war we hear the same tired statement...Religion is responsible for all of the wars and carnage that has happened in the world. As has been alluded to by others. The math does not hold up to the myth...
Stalin and Lenin 20 million
Hitler 8 million
and to that add Moa, Pol Pot and Idi Amin
Rawanda, Sierra Leone, Haiti and Bosnia
As one can see these conflicts which took place in the 20th Century alone would have had to wipe out medieval Europe to come close to these numbers.
Sometimes when the Pope speaks it is to the faithful first and the world next. His words are to inspire reflection and dialogue. We should not denigrade it by focussing on our opinions of the person or position but to engage the ideas. Islam needs its own reformation, so that it can engage the world instead of threatening to destroy it.
And just in case anyone wonders about my position on this event, all I can say is...JPII rocks and Pope Benedict is rocking!
The myth of the Catholic Church being silent over the death camps has been refuted over the last 5-7 years. Most of Europe, especially Britian were not aware of the death camps and denied their existence for much of the war. Secular and Jewish historians have come out to say that their is no evidence of the Church somehow being complicit with the Nazi's "Final Solution." What is known is that the Pope ordered all convents and monasteries (even cloistered ones) to open their doors. The Vatican, for the first time, armed its Swiss Guards and sought ways to smuggle Jews into the Vatican. One Rabbi who came to stay at the Vatican even converted to Catholicism. The Pope did not directly mention or attack Hitler in his encyclicals, but everyone, even Hitler knew who the Pope was directing his criticisms to.
I know I am boring some of you so I will make one more comment. At the Holocaust memorial site there is an area dedicated to those who assisted the Jews during this period...80% of the names are of Catholic Priests, Nuns and Lay people that risked their very lives to stop what Hitler was doing.
I am not a follower of the Pope, but I always make it a point to listen to smart and thoughtful people. He seems to be one.
Interesting argument. Andrew Sullivan has an interesting disection of it. Here is the best quote, or money quote in his parlance, " As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?
Benedict's answer is that it is always and instrinsically true. Which means that, without fundamental reform, without a Muslim reformation, a central part of Islam is always and intrinsically false. And it is this divide that lies at the heart of our current civilizational conflict. This seems to me to be the Pope's message. In the current climate, it is an inflammatory but courageous one."
One that last point. Well, expect the Islamist hotheads to call for the burning of the Vatican, some already do. This may be the equivalent of the cartoons and just prove the point.
ET said, "With the use of the authority of a metaphysical force [God],...inserts authority rather than individual choice, which serves to reduce diversity of thought. OK."
With all due respect, ET, and I say that in all sincerity, no, it's not OK. Authority does not preclude individual choice. An example of what I mean would be my authority over my children when they were very young, when I tried to instill in them values of love, respect, honour, discipline, order, honesty, etc., etc.. In doing this, I did not deny them individual choice.
I could not control every aspect of their lives, every minute of the day, nor did I want to, but that doesn't mean that I and their father didn't exercise authority over their lives--you could call it loving surveillance.
Our daughters' individual choices over the years have led to joy and sorrow (as have my own), and the logical consequences that each has brought about have had to be experienced or endured, depending on how you look at them.
Loving authority which is, IMO, what the Christian God exercises, does not in any way preclude my own choices in life--in fact, it aids me in making life-giving, rather than destructive, choices. I have made many choices which would be sure not to please this loving authority whose "job" it is to model a way of living, a way that is healthful, loving, giving, and generous (not an exhaustive list); I have neither been struck down by lightning nor consigned to a dark place because of wrong or destructive choices (to either myself and/or to others).
This authority, however, like a loving parent with a child, seeks to correct, guide, and direct and, I can assure you, there is much dialogue on a daily basis. As a person of faith, I am not a puppet; no one pulls my strings.
I pray, I meditate on various paths, I decide MYSELF what I am going to do, and then I deal with the consequences, either positive or negative. I either rejoice in the outcome or I jump back from the flame in pain and seek another way.
This is faith. It is not, I assure you, coerscive.
Too many Christian denominations failed to denounce the Nazi abuses, but there were churches and clergy that resisted, sometimes openly and sometimes in covert ways. An example is Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran pastor and theologian and former pacifist who was hanged by the Nazis shortly before WWII ended for participating in a plot to assassinate Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
I am just surprised the Catholic Church is again (FINALLY) taking a stand, like John Paul II against Soviet oppression in the Eastern Block.
When the Pope is mute on such matters, bad things like the Holocaust happen. When the Pope is vocal, it does matter. I hope Europeans start waking up. Read the BBC "Have Your Say" on the war on terror. It will make you wretch.
And for being a sign of redemption even in the hell of Auschwitz; recall the example of Fr. Maximillian Kolbe who took the place of another slated for execution. How to stand, even in the Devil's wind.
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm01.htm
Arrested with several of his brothers on 19 September 1939 following the Nazi invasion of Poland. Others at the monastery were briefly exiled, but the prisoners were released on 8 December 1939, and the men returned to their work. Back at Niepokalanow he continued his priestly ministry, The brothers housed 3,000 Polish refugees, two-thirds of whom were Jewish, and continued their publication work, including materials considered anti-Nazi. For this work the presses were shut down, the congregation suppressed, the brothers dispersed, and Maximilian was imprisoned in Pawiak prison, Warsaw, Poland on 17 February 1941.
On 28 May 1941 he was transferred to Auschwitz and branded as prisoner 16670. He was assigned to a special work group staffed by priests and supervised by especially vicious and abusive guards. His calm dedication to the faith brought him the worst jobs available, and more beatings than anyone else. At one point he was beaten, lashed, and left for dead. The prisoners managed to smuggle him into the camp hospital where he spent his recovery time hearing confessions. When he returned to the camp, Maximilian ministered to other prisoners, including conducting Mass and delivering communion using smuggled bread and wine.
In July 1941 there was an escape from the camp. Camp protocol, designed to make the prisoners guard each other, required that ten men be slaughtered in retribution for each escaped prisoner. Francis Gajowniczek, a married man with young children was chosen to die for the escape. Maximilian volunteered to take his place, and died as he had always wished - in service.
Died
14 August 1941 by lethal carbonic acid injection after three weeks of starvation and dehydration at Auschwitz; body burned in the ovens and ashes scattered
No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?
Saint Maximilian Kolbe in the last issue of the Knight
I'd like to point out also that the Catholic Church is the only Christian church with a powerful centralized head. The very nature of Protestant churches, and the number of sects, localizes their influence and deprives them of a cohesive leader or spokesperson.
In other words, the Pope is the closest equivilent in Christianity in terms of authority or influence to an Imam. I haven't reserached it, but I suspect the same must be true of Buddhism, Hinduism, and other great faiths with worshippers being trampled under Islam.
What a shame it is that the Western Left has no concern for the women, gays, and aethiests being assulted globally by Islam.
Phil, one compelling and sad point of WWII is that the whole world failed the Jews then. Their Christian neighbors, much to their shame, failed to protect them in country after country in Europe. Starring into the gun barrel in this next round of fascism, sickeningly, Europe accommodates this evil again. Anti-semitism has reared its ugly head in Europe again, the 1930's redux.
DarrenL - it's long overdue for the Vatican to protect it's flock. Catholiscism was/is the fastest growing religion in Africa, the same Africa where Islam bloodies its non-Islamic neighbors with impunity. It is really long overdue for the Church to shut down their lefty social activists of the kum by ya mode and start stepping on the toes of the African slugs that allow this. They are in a position of moral authority. They need to get very vocal and specific. Islam is incapable of reform. Like a soulless predator it doesn't admire that spiritual/civic quality of ours.
Many castigate the Catholic Christians of the Middle Ages for the political fig leaf of expansion by compulsion in colonial territories. Well, after that, Christians learned to read, rejected those principles, and the Western world evolved.
No one mentions that Islam has expanded through the entire ME, North Africa, and South Asia almost entirely by compulsion and violence, transforming Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, aethiest societies into the ever expanding "Muslim world". No one has a problem with the fact that Islam continues to expand by violent compulsion to this day. Why?
Folks you have provided me with a treasure trove of thought and reflection here today and DarrenL you just gotta keep talking you sure aren't boring me.
Well done and God Bless you all.
Pope Benedict - The Man!
You made this particular Papist's day!
Have Planned Parenthood & Co. given up trying have the Vatican thrown out of the U.N.?
Daisy - I worked for one year in a psych unit at a maximum security prison. Islam is hands down a more comfortable fit with the most anti-social and violent among us. Islam's superficiality matches up well with macho male sociopaths. You never have to say your sorry. Prescribed rituals alone get you salvation.
No surprise, Richard Reid and Jose Padilla were both jailhouse converts.
That pretty much nails it. Islam appeals to macho males and it is supported by ignorant females with no self-esteem, taught from birth that they're inferior.
However, the latter derive some residual self-worth by knowing they're "better" and "cleaner" than kuffur girls.
A further note to the "who cares what the Pope says" crowd read this from the Wiesanthal website...
http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/%7BDFD2AAC1-2ADE-428A-9263-35234229D8D8%7D/article-international.html?SMContentIndex=0&SMContentSet=0
Penny: I THINK the Vatican has been making moves to intellectually and spiritually protect its flock. The reality is that the only REAL way to physically protect them in Muslim countries is through either armed conflict or an aggressive local diplomatic dialogue whereby members of each side are instructed to "be nice" to each other...Yeah! Right. I wouldn't hold a lot of hope of that happening. the history of the Catholic Church in similar situations is to provide sanctuary and a voice for those being persecuted. I know it doesn't sound very satisfying but historically the kind of defense presently carried out by the Islamic Extremists does not hold. It creates a backlash. When the Catholic Church or various Protestant faiths followed the same formula they eventually faced the same reality. The blood of Martyrs are seeds of the Church. It ain't pretty, but its true.
As for my comments on Islamic Reform, it was a bit sarcastic in that I feel that it is not possible because once Muslims confront the messages in the Koran they will find themselves ultimately in conflict. But I still believe that the process is invaluable for a faith to fully mature.
Jeff Cosford: Thanks for the compliment. I often worried that I am too wordy.
Wimpy Canadian,
Hopefully that day will come in the future.
no matter what, the pope disrespected the religion, so in all sense he is wrong!!!
Very interesting discussion. I work at a place where there is a rich confluence of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people, and the subject of religion has come up frequently. With current events as they are, quite often the conversation will swing that way. I'm sure that tomorrow I will be hit over the head with what the Pope said (I'm supposed to represent the Catholic perspective, which unfortunately I don't always do very well). I agree that the truth isn't easy, but he does have the unappealing job of speaking it. God bless him! I also agree with the way he guardedly worded his response to the query of is Islam a Religion of Peace? There are peaceful aspects of it, certainly, but the violent aspects currently seem to be in greater emphasis. The challenge of moderate, peaceful Muslims/imams/clerics is to disprove him, by bringing into the light Islam's peaceful face.
Thanks for all the thought-provoking discussion!
Prurple: The Pope did not disrespect the Islamic faith. He brought forth a contradiction in its present state. One simply has to look at the Cartoon Issue to see it in its ugly reality. The response from much of the Muslim community was chaos and violence in the name of their prophet. Tell me how is the faith or Mohammed raised or elevated by forced conversion, riots, violence and threats of violence. Even in demonstrations in Canada, there were placards calling for the beheading and assassination of the PM. I tell you again, Islam is at a crossroad. It must look at itself in the mirror and respond.
K Duque: I have been in your shoes before, so let me give you some advice. 1. if you don't know the Churches position or history in something admit to it and get back to the person
2. be respectful but do not back away from the truth. Islam does have a peaceful component and it should not be ignored, but the whole of the faith must be examined. 3. If you are ever stuck go to newadvent.org and check something out in the Catholic Encyclopedia, it is concise and detailed.
Good luck
THE POPE LIKE BUSH HAS ONCE AGAIN SHOWN THE DARK SIDE OF THE WEST AND ITS ATTEMPTS AT SUBJUGATING ISLAM. THIS IS JUST ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT JUSTIFIFYING THE OCCUPATION OF MUSLIM LAND AND USURPING OF ITS RESOURCES. AS LONG AS YOUR JUDEO BROTHERS WISH TO MASSACRE, USURP AND SUBJUGATE PALESTINIANS WITH THE TOTAL ACCEPTANCE AND CONNIVANCE OF THE NEW AXIS OF EVIL - AMERICA, BRITAIN AND THE POPE - DO NOT EXPECT MUSLIMS TO BE LED AS LAMBS TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.
It is a fallacy to think that religions cause conflict. The real fault lies in man's lower nature and his need to dominate others. People who fight in the name of religion are never truly religious.
Anybody who appears different from us is a target because of this nature of man. This includes a man of a different colour, a person of a different geographic region, a person who speaks a different language, a person with a different religion - in general, anybody who appears different.
Gerard J D'Silva