The Real Loser

The cease fire was too soon.

I read on Lebanon based sites that many lebonese see the solution as Hezbollah joining and becoming part of their government.

They become the Lebonese army in effect. Then they are no longer a rogue state within a state. Dicey for Israel. = TG

I've thought this myself and would like to believe it but .... we don't know who as being saying what to whom and what deals made etc...

"{At that point, it will be obvious that no one else is willing, or able, to deal with the outlaw "state-within-a-state" that Hizbollah represents"

Problem with the Strategypage analysis: It relies upon the world taking the view that Hizballah and Lebanon broke the truce instead of the Israelis when the fighting starts once again.

Given experience, what are the odds of that? Lotto 6/49 is a better bet. If there's a choice between condemming a bloody handed murderer and an Israeli, the Israeli will be chosen every time.

I think one very imperfect analogy that might fit with the latest Israeli campaign is that of Dieppe. The Lebanese offensive wasn't as disasterous as Dieppe, but has given a short, sharp shock to the Israelis. It has taught them exactly what they're up against and given them an opportunity to learn many valuable lessons for when they go back for real.

The only Lebanese I know are Christian and they wished Israel had kept on going and destroyed Hisbollah totally. Hate being very popular between the different factions there but I was still quite surprised at that remark. One other thing that really caught me off guard was when he said the real way to keep the extremists away was to help the Arabs rebuild within the buffer zone and give them some safety and stability. He pointed out that there were x number of Arabs that are Israelis and they are not causing any real problems and live normal lives. Good point. Any other comments on that?

The Israelis are feeding the Jihadists and Koffi rope by the armful.
The UN will not stop the Hez from launching rockets hidden in Hez supporter living rooms.
Now that the IDF has covered southern Lebanon with troops and personal they can gather intelligence and future strike co-ordinates for when the inevitable failure of the UN happens, again.

the West's strategy should be to to induce pressure on all the internal muslim fault lines . . Shia/Sunni, Arab/Persian and let the Muslim on Muslim hatred work itself out on each other.

15,000 UN peacekeepers?

Yeah, right.

Even if they did exist, and could be deployed in a reasonable time-frame, without a mandate to forcibly disarm the terrorists they'd be worse than useless.

This is just a short recess. The main event will spool up shortly.

*sigh*

The war is far from over, its just turned cold. When it heats up again Israel will go for the throat and do just what the USA did in Iraq...over-run the entire country.

It will then be on the doorstep of Iran and Syria. After that it's anybodys bet. I just hope the rest of the world has the cajones to finish them (militant Shia) off.

Colin Powell tells Montrealers Harper right to back Israel

CanWest News Service; Montreal Gazette
Published: Wednesday, August 16, 2006

MONTREAL - Former U.S. secretary of state Colin Powell praised Stephen Harper's government Tuesday night for its strong support of Israel in its fight against Hezbollah.

Powell told a Montreal audience that Canada has stood out with its unequivocal backing for Israel during its campaign to defeat Hezbollah's forces in southern Lebanon.

"I thank Canada for standing firm with Israel and the United States in this time of difficulty,'' Powell told 700 people at a fundraising dinner organized by the Montreal branch of the Jewish National Fund.

.......
About 150 protesters gathered outside the Queen Elizabeth Hotel to denounce Israel, Powell and U.S. policy in the Middle East. They blocked traffic at the height of the evening rush hour, waving Lebanese and Hezbollah flags. ...-
http://www.paulding.net/bin/url.cgi/13376.5

The citizens of Lebanon were complicit in allowing Hezbollah to harbour 10-15,000 missiles supplied by Iran and Syria and others. This is just one open battlefront, so far there are 2 others Iraq and Afghanistan. This is a world war against Islamic Fascists. Hopefully Canadian Muslims, learn from Lebanon and become less and less complicit about the extremists in our midst.

Canadians need to wake up. Clearly not all of our Muslim community is assimilating the way we used to brag about. Multiculturalism does not work; we must encourage total assimilation- Canada First.

I suspect we’ll be seeing much more evidence on how these networks of terrorist operate once the authorities piece together the London arrests with the Toronto arrests and Seats Tower arrests and so on. Time to stop being utopian. Time to do what Colin Powell said yesterday in Montreal ..

“Powell said it is vital for the Lebanese government to establish control over the country and all weapons within its borders.
"You can't have a state with a terrorist organization that is free to roam and attack its neighbours,'' he said in a reference to Hezbollah.”

The Montreal Gazette deserves credit for sponsoring the event … read the whole thing over at Neale News.

If the savages think the destruction in South Lebanon is a great victory, then the West should give them a HUGE victory and totally demolish Tehran and Damascus! The terror capitals.

If Hizbollah is a terrorist state within a state what did the make the Parti Quebecois at one time? What does that make them now? All be it in a different form. I refer to them as soft terrorists, they still hold us up it's just not with guns and mail bombs anymore.

OOPS

this hebullshit 'victory' crap is an age old claim.

the americans used it for instance in the war of 1812 to claim the 'won' because the brits werent able in the time of the napoleanic wars to go back and undo the war oof independence.

but their avowed broadcast intent of punishing britain by ovetaking and incorporating canada into the fold failed, so how can they claim victory?

it was canada's first victory in an unblemished record of winning the wars we engage in. significantly this first one was a direct attack by the americans who have never tried it again.

likewise the hezbullshitis at the top realize this lopsided 'victory' would doom them if re-re-repeated. so it sits. the UN is a non-issue, a pantomiming court jester.

God those Israelis are a tough bunch. oyph.

the star of david is now hanging in my house. soon to be joined by the maple leaf and stars and stripes when they move back in from the front of the house at the end of summer.

* you hezbollah

Western Canadian I agree with your statement on parti quebecois. Crap like them is why I think ther sould be a referendum by Canadians as to if we want them in Confederation.

Robert J - the 1812 war wasn't between 'Canada' and the US. Canada didn't exist; it was between the British and the US. And it was a draw.

Canada hasn't engaged in its own singular wars, separate from the British Commonwealth - except for its alliances with others within the Korean and Afghanistan wars.

I don't think it's an "Israeli strategy to allow the UN deal to self-destruct'. After all, Israel has no role to play in the UN deal. The UN deal will self-destruct on its own, because it can't find troops for that '15,000 UN force'. And, because the UN is, in itself, unable to undertake any serious mission and see it through to any success.

I think the ME world will have to at some time, face up to Iran and its imperialist agenda. Syria is controlled by Iran, and Syria used to control Lebanon and was kicked out, but Hezbollah, the terrorist arm of Iran, remained. The agenda of Iran is to move Syria back into Lebanon. THen, Iran wants to control Iraq. And then, the other ME states.

The issue of Israel's existence is a 'false front' brought up to validate the real agendas. There are two agendas.

There is the old one, which is the retention of tribalism as the political mode in the ME. This empowers a tribe, rather than the majority of the population. The ME states were against Israel, not simply because of its 'Jewishness' (and I maintain their hostility to its religion was also a front for the real reason), but because it is a democracy. They have collaborated to prevent Palestinian statehood for the same reason; they don't want democracy in the region.

The other agenda is Iran's singular goal of becoming the imperial power in the ME. I think that this agenda is the key 'breaking point' in the ongoing problems of the ME. The Arab states don't want to be ruled by Iran. Therefore, they will have to reject Iran's actions, and I suggest this will move them to empower their people, which means, to move towards democracy and this, in itself, will also be the beginning of the mov't away from Islamic fascism.

Perhaps I'm utopian?

There is too much emphasis made on shia vs. sunni. Hezbollah is funded by Iran. Iran funds it to cause as much damage to Israel and the US while keeping their hands notionally clean. Maybe inside Iran the sunni vs. shia battle may be a priority. For now, outside Iran they just wants any and all muslims against US and Israel.
Syria has become a pawn of Iran in this. Largely they are the supply route for Iranian weapons.
Israel will come out ahead when hezbollah will break the truce. Then it will be game on. Watch for Benjamin Netanyahu to take over and he is a hawk. No pussyfooting around.
enough

Israel's screwed anyway. The more they get attacked the more they're hated so why not go in and level southern Lebanon. They're already accused of doing so and there's no reconciliation with reality here they'll always be viewed as the aggressor. They might as well do what they're accused of doing already. Might as well take out the threat.

Canada is more balkanized than people realize.
Quebec province can be further divided into Anglais, Francophone and First Nations. Montreal can be subdivided into urban and suburbs with different degrees of "separtistness" and it could drop down to a a neighbourhood by neighbourhood opt in or out. First nations will not opt out as they are even more dependant than the francophonies.

we do have an entrenched Hezb'allah, first nations are armed to the teeth.native gangs and the cigarette smuggling is ignored as much as the judges order to disband at Caledonia.

ET, in response to your question, I believe that you ARE being utopian in this regard. I don't think the move to democracy will take place in a logical, reasoned, mechanical manner as your theory suggests. I think that the issue of blind religious dogma will keep the muslims under the thumb of the ruling elite and there will be no move to democracy...not without a great deal of bloodshed, at least.

I suggest that democracy first sprung out of the fertile minds trained in logic and reason and then took root many centuries later on a widespread basis thanks to the influences of "modern Christianity" (love thy neighbour as thyself, live at peace with others, all men are equal under God, etc.). The muslim world seemingly lacks these qualities.

I think your equation doesn't take religious dogma sufficiently into account.

Just my uneducated and uninformed opinion.

“Arab states do not want to be ruled by Iran”
That is not a utopian statement, it’s a fact.

Sometimes I think we in the West are so self critical that we fail to notice the implosions taking place on the other side. The useless CIA and Foggy Bottom go native, they become so tight with their engagement, with the enemy that they fail to see its flaws. They completely missed the collapse of the USSR.

The bad news is that we’re dealing with tribalism. But that’s also the good news – it’s the tribes that are killing each other. CNN reports American deaths but there are 1000’s of tribals killing tribals in Iraq. We lose site of that.

The status quo of utopian containment in the ME is over. We’re into a brutal bloody battle that will take years. But it’s the only game on the table; nobody has come up with a better suggestion. I think it will work – eventually. It probably won’t be “mechanical, reasoned logical” it will be messy which is how democracy happened nearly everywhere except Canada. It will happen because people in the ME are human; they are not coded in such a way as to not want and ccept democracy – or some derivative of it.

First thing the Israelis need to do is to get rid of their dithering muffin of a leader. This guy doesn't know if he's coming or going. The IDF sat on the border for weeks not knowing what it was supposed to do. Then it was the old start-stop-start-stop war of indecision by a pathetic Olmert. Obviously no war can be won this way.

The deceitful and absolutely pathetic UN sorta, kinda, half-way promised the Hez-Choppers would somehow be disarmed, but we now see that for the lie it was. They will do nothing to disarm the Hezbos. Even worse, now there will be 15,000 of the prancing UN boy-scouts to act as cover for the Hezbo rockets and bunkers!

And the Lebanese government - well guess what - Hezbos R Us! The Lebanese government will neither disarm the Hezbos nor move them north. What will probably happen here is some kind of absorption where the Lebanese army is absorbed into the Hezbo cause while retaining the 'Army' name. Nice and clean on first appearance but under the blood-thirsty Hezbo command and control.

Obviously Israel under a real leader will not put up with these deranged killers on their border in even larger numbers than before. There will be another war soon and Israel will not give in to the UN and Eurabist poseurs again. The next war will be for all the marbles in Lebanon.

Hey, Hassle, in many ways, your "uneducated and uninformed opinion" sounds a whole lot better than ones I've heard from a lot of our so-called leaders in Canada. Thanks for your thoughts!

hassle - democracy isn't the result of a rational or logical debate.

It's a political mode that empowers the economic majority, ie the middle class and enables them to control the economic future of a country. If you require, and I use the word 'require' with intent, an economy that can grow, can produce more goods and services, then, you must enable democracy.

In our era, democracy is the ONLY OPTION, because it enables a large population (in the millions) and industrial economy to exist.

Tribalism, on the other hand, empowers a minority, the dominant tribe, and disempowers the majority. Such a political mode is only functional in a 'no-growth' society, whose population is not increasing and which doesn't require increased economic output. The population growth in the ME over the past two decades has been explosive but the majority are deprived of economic and political power.

Moving to democracy isn't a 'rational' choice; it is a 'structural choice'. I know that sounds strange but I'm trying to say that sometimes, the 'new political and economic order' doesn't emerge from plan, thought and intent. The new structure emerges within 'self-organization', where new modes of behaviour and belief emerge, because they are functional. Thought and analysis of this new structure comes AFTER its emergence!

In the West, democracy as a political structure of nations began to emerge in the 12th c. moved along with the Magna Carta, moved along with the separation of church and state, moved along with the privileging of the individual, with the emphasis on reason, .and wasn't fully emergent until centuries later, and wasn't extensively analyzed as a national requirement until the 18th and 19th centuries. (I'm excluding the Aristotelian analysis, which was rejected for centuries and moved back into discussion after the 12th c).

As long as the MSM maintains its bias, Israel and the US will always "lose" in any effort to stabilize any hot spot.

This World War will not change direction until:

1. The MSM is completely overhauled of it's bias.

2. A nuke is unleashed on a Western/democratic city and all Hell breaks loose.

Which do you want to happen?

Worse things could happen than the demise of a Muslim controlled UN Assembly. Time to create a new World body, preferrably one where dictators, tyrants, and theocracies are not allowed.

Perhaps the supreme irony here is that the interests of Israel and the nearby Sunni Arab states are identical: destroying the hegemonic potential and ambitions of Iran and it's short pants ally, Syria.

Only the vast majority of the Sunni Arabs are too addicted to their Israel and Jew-hatred to see it.

(To make an reductio ad absurdum example of the nightmare worst case scenario: where do they think all that fallout from Iranian nukes over Israel is going to drift???)

I doubt they spend much time considering aspects like fall-out.

I'm inclined to agree with Doug, this shitpile is going to keep going until some unfortunate western nation has a terrorist nuke set off in one of it's cities.

Then the shit will hit the fan, and bye-bye Middle East, say hello to a couple of million soldiers from Nato with love.

Hezbollah won because they survived.
They survived because of the weakness of the so called free world and civilized nations.

This is a travesty.
OMMAG

WTF?????:

"Mosad fails to kill Hamas chief in Syria: sources

GAZA, Aug. 16 (Xinhua) -- The external Israeli security intelligence service, better know as Mosad, has failed to assassinate Damascus-based Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal, sources in the movement revealed Wednesday.

The sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, were quoted by a Palestinian independent news agency as saying that the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) knew about the Israeli attempt to kill Meshaal through a Western intelligence security service.

They added that several Mosad agents arrived in Damascus in mid-July during the Israeli military offensives on Lebanon, disguising as foreign relief volunteers in a bid to assassinate Meshaal.

The sources, however, didn't say if the Mosad agents were discovered or arrested by the Syrians or if they are still in Syria or they had left."

news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-08/16/content_4969944.htm

Bob the commie quoting his Chinese commie propaganda paper. Next he will be using Al Jazeera.com as his source.

Hardline anti-backbaconist Alan grunted: "Bob the commie quoting his Chinese"

Got something against Chinese people, you racist pig?

:-)

ET:

The war of 1812 was NOT a draw. The U.S.'s main goal was to take the British colonies. The Canadian and British goal was to prevent that. Therefore the Canadians and British won and the U.S. lost.

And it's perfectly correct to refer to "Canadian forces".
The regions at that time were called Upper and Lower Canada. Pierre Burton in his book "The Invasion of Canada" had no hesitation about calling the region "Canada", and the occupants "Canadian" (and yes, they played an important part in the war). The fact that Canada was not yet an independent country is moot. I'm an Albertan, yet Alberta is not a nation, although it might be if the Liberals ever get back to power soon.

Note Wikipedia also refers to "Canadian forces" in the war of 1812:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

The war of 1812 was clearly won by the Canadians...we burned what was then known as the "Pink House" to the ground. It was later rebuilt and renamed the "White House".

You won't find this in history books because Americans write history the way they want it to be remembered not as it happened.

Just 1 example why Americans are despised around the world.

Bob - continue to call other commentors names like "racist pig" on this blog, and you'll find yourself evicted.

Israel should never have agreed to a cease-fire without an accountable plan for Hisballah disarmament, the make-up of the UN force undetermined, and with their soldiers still held captive. There is still a lot of cause for concern about what will happen in the coming weeks and months as the cease-fire terms (such as they are) are implemented and Israel disengages. Still, this was a huge victory in the war on terror on several accounts.

1) It made a clear statement that states will be held accountable for the actions of terrorist proxy armies. ME governements, and the UN, wanted the US Afghan logic to be an exception. Nope. It's the rule. All states harboring terrorist militias should take note.

2) Even though Middle Easterners were screaming "disproportionate use of force", "massacre", and "genocide", the governments understand Israel was exercising restraint. Israel's enemies can expect that next time an act of war is perpetrated against the state of Israel, it will mean all out, gloves-off war.

3) The anti-western agenda of many in the MSM has been exposed, as well as the propaganda tactics of the Islamists. Continued scrutiny will hopefully result in more ethical reporting.

4) Iranian expansionist ambitions have been fully exposed. Although the ME street may ignorantly cheer the "victory" of Hisballah against the "Zionist enemy", this has sent a much needed cold chill through the body politic of the Arab world.

5) There is now recognizition within Israel that disengagement alone will not ensure safety, and that they need a 5 star bast**d as head of state.

Dave, if a nuke is deployed in any western city, I don't think a ground engagement would be the response, if you know what I mean.

Bob your a very quick to haul out the race card. What makes you think I am not Chinese? Many Chinese detest the propaganda lies; they are fed in their government controlled news.

"You won't find this in history books because Americans write history the way they want it to be remembered not as it happened.

Just 1 example why Americans are despised around the world."
David, your statement above only shows your hate for the Americans and likely the west in general.
If you want to see a rewrite of history, look in Trudeau.
Every country does it. Normally, the politically correct lefties.

Agreed Tom Penn, however Doug's and JoeCalgary's(not Dave's) assertion that a nuke (probably dirty bomb, IMO) deployed against the western world is what we are prepared to hold our water for.
My appologies, if I misread your comments.

Here's hoping the Islamaniacs get distracted by some smokinhot piece of goatpoontang as they take aim.

doowleb,

I didn't say that I despised Americans. I was merely offering 1 explanation for this phenomenon. I've spent many years working and travelling in the USA and know first hand that most Americans are friendly decent people.

I don't hate Americans or the west. I love my Western lifestyle. What I do hate though is uninformed people making hasty stupid judgements.

"If you want to see a rewrite of history, look in Trudeau.
Every country does it. Normally, the politically correct lefties."

Tom Penn
your comment from 3:15 pm has cheered me up

ET, as always, thank you for your insightful and reasoned responses. You note (I'm paraphrasing)that democracy must develop as a population increases (to some undefined size). In the middle east, there are many muslim states that are still stuck in the tribalism mode and show no signs (that I can discern) of anything that may signal a shift to democracy.

As long as they have money flowing in from oil or other natural resources, then it would seem to me that there will be no structural reason for many of them to change. With some of the large populations there, I would question, though...at what population level does the shift to democracy HAVE to happen? China did not seem to make any democratic reforms until the population hit near a billion (I'm guessing). So it would appear as though relying on the size of the population and fostering growth and all that jazz can't be expected to happen anytime soon, necessarily.

Therefore, your view would seem to be utopian, if we were to consider the short- to mid-term.

I still believe that, as NKOTB had tried to note weeks ago, you are perhaps not giving as much weight to the influences of religion in your calculations as you should. Islamism (as would Christianity, though I suspect to a much lesser extent) will keep the poor and (presumably small) middle class in check for many years longer than a secular society would (theoretically).

I am NOT a history buff by any means, but I suspect that I would not be incorrect to state that the Magna Carta and the American Constitution that did so much to move along democracy was NOT written in a religious vacuum, but instead within an (ostensibly) Christian environment where the values that supported the development of a democratic structure were present.

Anyway, with that, we should probably let this issue die...we don't want to be accused of carrying on a conversation on Kate's dime and I don't think the issue is significant enough to warrant further debate.

Tom Penn very good points you made. At least we can get something out of Olmert's disastrous pretend-war.

Yo Bob:
My Grandchildren are 1/2 Chinese. Their Grandad
(the Chinese one) hates those "pigs" that forced him and his wife into virtual slavery for a number of years until they fled to Canada.
Yes, I and my family have something against the Chinese because of what happened to them and their families. They are without doubt the most ruthless Government on earth.
So Bob, go fuck yourself. You don't have a clue.
Armchair critics like you don't deserve the time of day. Go navel gaze somewhere else, you ignorant twit.

Hitler, the Mufti of Jerusalem, and Islamic Fascism

I’ve read about the alliance between Adolf Hitler and Muslim Arab leaders in World War II, and seen still photographs, but this is the first time I’ve seen actual video of Hitler meeting with the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini—Yasser Arafat’s uncle. From a German TV documentary, with English subtitles. (Hat tip: Justify This, who also created the Azzam Tamimi “shrieking jihad” video.)...-
link at LGF

It's only another poll, but it's food for thought after last Friday's hallelujas about Canadian support for Israel claimed in a COMPAS poll reported by CanWest -

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060816.POLL16/TPStory/National

And the questions and responses are even stated at the end.

Re maz2's Hitler, the Mufti and Islamic Fascism -

We went around that horn here months ago, maz. The last time, the insinutation was that Islam was responsible for Nazism. Are you now saying that it's the other way around?

In my opinion it's a draw between Israel and Hezbollah, and, unfortunately, a draw isn't good enough. It gives the Iranians their faux victory for their PR purposes and emboldens them because they now sure have a handle on Israel's leadership weaknesses.

These people probe. I've begun to wonder if some of these latest terrorist plots and arrests are throw-aways that they(?) can afford to lose in testing the waters. If they are the brain trust of AQ, then, it's a measure of how weakened they've become - stupid operatives with redundant plans. The man behind the curtain is Iran. Hamas and AQ are yesterday's news. Iran has the money, the expertise and the maniacal will to perpetrate some really nasty stuff in our future.

I hope and think that the Kurds and Sunnis in Iraq are standing at attention. Cynically, part of me would like to see these tribal entities slug it out and reduce themselves to nothing.

I despise Putin for smarmily arming Iran. What a bastard. The KGB never died.

It puts chills down my spine just thinking about Iran getting their bomb together. Let's pray after the mid-term elections, garnering as many Republicans as possible, that Bush on his way out the door with nothing left to lose nails Iran's nuclear sites.