The Evangelist

The folks at CBC are much more diligent about these things now.

They know that allowing evangelists public air time would only encourage the fanatics.

God knows we don't need any more Pentecostalist suicide bombings on TTC streetcars or Methodists slamming Air Canada jets into the Calgary Tower...

CTV broadcasts them today - I fail to see the point.
He is the kind of person that the States needs today to bring the left and right together.The article talk about his friendship with Martin Luther King and Bush 41. This , rather than a massive mis trust of the other side, is a lot more productive than automatically dismissing someone's opinion because they may hold a different view than yours.

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

"Altruistic behaviour is common throughout the animal kingdom, particularly in species with complex social structures. For example, vampire bats regularly regurgitate blood and donate it to other members of their group who have failed to feed that night, ensuring they do not starve. In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives help in raising its young from other ‘helper’ birds, who protect the nest from predators and help to feed the fledglings. Vervet monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked. In social insect colonies (ants, wasps, bees and termites), sterile workers devote their whole lives to caring for the queen, constructing and protecting the nest, foraging for food, and tending the larvae. Such behaviour is maximally altruistic: sterile workers obviously do not leave any offspring of their own -- so have personal fitness of zero -- but their actions greatly assist the reproductive efforts of the queen.

From a Darwinian viewpoint, the existence of altruism in nature is at first sight puzzling, as Darwin himself realized....How did the alarm-calling behaviour evolve in the first place, and why has it not been eliminated by natural selection? How can the existence of altruism be reconciled with basic Darwinian principles?"

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/

Bob, stay on topic.

cbcbc also used to broadcast a religion hymn show called agape (pronounced a - gap -eh)

that was a long time ago.

now they broadcast mostly propaganda of a different sort.

I saw Mr Graham once at a sermon in hamilton. I arrived on time, ie late, because he completely filled copps coloseum overflowing. I had to watch on the monitors set up in the corridors.

he sure could pack em in.

The CBC also televised "Hymn Sing" and canceled the show only 10yrs ago.

The CBC also used to be the only game in town. What's your point?

I'm over 30 and don't remember it. I also find it tough to believe. WOW, the mothercorp has really done a 180 hasn't it?

Good one, JJM.

Add: or Amish taking school children hostage.

I remember. It used to be refreshing to hear a religious minister who was not demanding the death of innocent civilians even if they did practice the religion of Islam. Grahman did not confuse his religious beliefs with his political beliefs. He truly believes the words that say, 'that which you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me'. (or) It would be better to put a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea than to harm one of these children.

(I will now brace for a flurry of nasty, hateful, off the deepend, rightwing rhetoric - okay, who's first?)

The Graham Crusades now buy the air time for their programming. Maybe they always did.

This is the Billy Graham who, in a memorial service after the 9/11 attacks said: " And many of those people who died this past week are in heaven right now and they wouldn't want to come back. It's so glorious and so wonderful." Many? Many? Maybe just the Christians. Maybe not the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. Keep this narrow minded old gentleman away from me.

As a kid I visited my grandparents for a few weeks every summer in Brandon. My grandma was a deeply religious immigrant from Germany and she made sure the grandkids had ample exposure to christianity. They had an old black n'white t.v. complete with rabbit ears which was turned on only to watch regular Sunday religious programs, local news and Stampede Wrestling. The only exception to this strict schedule were the Billy Graham Crusade broadcasts.

No matter how busy things were in my grandparent's home, time was always made for Billy Graham. Billy's powerful oratorials communicated clearly through the grainy images his positive and deep convictions about God's love, power and grace. It was easy to see why my Grandma (and Grandpa too) loved Billy Graham. Their life before retirement had been very hard having survived as dirt farmers during the Great Depression era. Billy gave them hope that the sacrifices made throughout their lives meant something...and that ultimately those that make an effort to live a responsible moral life will have a share of something far greater. Mr. Graham minced no bones that doing the right things was not only a harder path to travel but it was necessary for our own benefit.

Billy Graham became a trusted close friend to my grandparents through his message even though they never personally met the man...and because my grandparents refused to allow me to waste away those few weeks every year watching cartoons or reading comics during those hours I too developed a love for the man. I'm thankful to my grandparents for that (maybe not so much at the time).

God bless Billy Graham. He's a true giant among us and a beacon of light in the storm of life. It will be a sad day for the world when he leaves us.

I found the article you had a link to, refreshing. Gentleness and humility as pretty consistently displayed by Mr. Graham, as well as taking a strong stand for your convictions...that's what I aspire to and he's provided a great living example.

Andy, it's too bad, but you're the narrow minded one. Billy knows that "In my [God's] house are many mansions". There's NO WAY that he was suggesting that non Christians were in another place--that's your bent idea.

Martin, lovely to see you here! Thank you for your inspiring memories. My grandmother lived in Brandon as a young girl and had a pony named Minnie; maybe our families knew each other! God bless your grandparents and you.

And God bless Billy Graham, His faithful servant.

Actually, the quote is, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Jesus said this. As this is sda, not CBC, I feel quite safe quoting the Bible!

Andy seems to be a bit narrow-minded in his own comments re. Dr. Graham.

To assume that all secularists and hedonists would choose or want to be in heaven is really very narrow.

Seeing as many oppose the concept of an afterlife and have rejected God, it would be very unkind to presume that God would force them into a state not of their choosing. How illiberal -- even if it were possible.

In addition, herding everyone immediately into the beatific vision goes contrary to the concept of free will; something very close to the hearts of most secularists.

I think it, therefore, actually very liberal of Dr Graham to imply that not all would wish to, nor should they be forced into going directly to heaven upon death. Speaking personally, some of us are simply not prepared.

Many of us hold, for example, that with few exceptions, most people are not ready for immediate entry into the state of heaven (I include myself). We would contend that except for those of heroic virtue (saints) the rest of us will have to deal with the intermediate state first i.e. purgatory.

Though not heaven, purgatory is a very hopeful prospect, actually, since it means that we are headed in the right direction, despite the unfinished business we have.

Despite Andy's pleading, I simply don't believe those who say they are "good people" -- BTW that is something saints, unlike journalists and bloggers, are never reported to claim.

However, like Dr Graham and unlike Andy, it is not for me to judge others or say that all are indiscriminately sent directly to heaven -- and do not pass GO. Likewise, I do not join those who say that all infidels go directly to Hell.

Some people expect to face re-incarnation.

What would CBC journalists return as, one wonders? No doubt, my ideas differ from theirs on that subject, so it is better, as Dr. Graham has suggested, that eschatology and the final state of individual souls is left open.

BTW, Billy Graham has visited with the Pope and with numerous Jewish and other leaders of different faiths and no faith. He has unfailingly expressed respect for them and assured all that God loves them.

It appears, then, that Billy Graham leaves the matter of eternal salvation open to "choice", that quality so much vaunted by liberals. Is he not, therefore, actually being broad-minded compared, for example, to luminaries at the CBC, or many bloggers?

Hell yes!

Touche, Ignatius! Much better and more eloquently expressed than my poor ramblings.

Many thanks. Blessings too.

...ah for the good ol' days...

Thanks lookout.

It seems that the mere mention of "purgatory" sends the forces of liberalism
into retreat to contemplate Tom Locke (we can even pray for his soul though).

Purgatory is such a liberal notion, and so full of the fruits of "choice", one wonders why they flee.

With the greatest of respect to lookout and ingatius, and mindful of the folly of getting into a theological discussion here [not that it would be a bad thing], "heaven" as I understand it, and indeed as the Vatican understands it, is not a place. It is a state. In my tradition, it's a state where "pain and suffering are no more." We don't really choose whether we're in that state or not. In other words, we don't choose God. God chooses us. My problem with Dr. Graham's statement that "many of them are in heaven" is that it's more than a bit presumptious. And imagine how the family and friends of the people who were killed felt.

my insertion to the debate:

Ive gotten as many differentr answers to this as the times Ive asked it:

if we 'go' the 'heaven' upon death, why the emphasis on 'white throne' (why does the throne have to be white?) 'judgement' day?
what, spend some quality time in paradise and then whoa !!! you didnt pass muster on judgement day so you get heaved over the precipice just outside the pearly gates !!!

mysteries of the universe.....

Andy: "...imagine how the family and friends of the people who were killed felt."

Andy, when you find out be sure what heaven is, we'd appreciate a post on SDA to tell us. Until then it'll have to be a matter of faith for me. Your theological hair splitting is pathetic and pointless. At 87 years old Billy Graham's life is near it's glorious end. The exact meaning of anything he said post 9/11 is only controversial to non-Christians grasping for any potential smears to his life (getting dirt ready for the unauthorized biography, Andy?). I'm sure many people searched for comforting words to say to those directly affected by 9/11 without consulting a Strong's Concordance during those first painful and confusing days.

How well can you match the example of his life? Can you even begin to guess what kind of a person Billy Graham is? Guessing from your comments, you haven't a clue.

Martin B:

Thank you for asking about "what" heaven is, rather than "where" it is. That is one of my points. When I know, if I know for sure, I'll be sure to post it here and elsewhere! I hold no candle for Billy Graham, nor do I wish to smear him. He makes public statements as a Christian and I feel free to challenge him and critize him, as I do with the leaders of my branch of the Christian faith. [Don't get me started on the Archbishop of Canterbury.] As for comforting words after 9/11, look [or google] remarks by other Christian and other faith leaders at the memorial service at Washington National Cathedral, where Graham made his discomforting [to me, at least] remarks. I kind of know what kind of a person Billy Graham is. He's a man, like me, with strenghts and flaws. Who am I, or anyone, to judge his greatness?

"Many? Many? Maybe just the Christians. Maybe not the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. Keep this narrow minded old gentleman away from me."

Did he say that? No? Aren't you putting words in his mouth? Perhaps he was excluding the atheists. That would sound more reasonable.

"My problem with Dr. Graham's statement that "many of them are in heaven" is that it's more than a bit presumptious. And imagine how the family and friends of the people who were killed felt."

I imagine the atheists dismissed his words as the meaningless ramblings of a superstitious old man and couldn't care less. I imagine that those of other religions dismissed his words as irrelevant and were comforted by their own faiths. And I imagine that the christians were comforted.

Robert J-
As I understand it, the Judgement Seat of Christ is for those who are saved. They will be judged with regards to "works" ie what treasures are left once the hay and stubble of their lives is removed. Not to be confused with salvation. All are saved that stand before the Judgement Seat. The Great White Throne is when the unsaved come before the Lord and will be sentenced to the second death. The saved will not see the Great White Throne. (No I don't know why it's white) Disclaimer: This is my belief, not telling anyone what to believe so don't attack me.

Andy, a stone thrower like you gives Christians everywhere so little to aspire to. Your ignorance is well demonstrated in your comments...feel free to criticize, brother Andy.

Andy - "we don't really choose God"

Though God chooses us, I would hasten to add that God chooses all (no double pre-destination please). However, we must co-operate with grace, otherwise there is no purpose to sanctification, judgement or purification. We would merely be puppets of the divine.

The Church has always taught that heaven is indeed a state rather than a location -- so much for the Soviet astronaut's comment that he couldn't see it while in space.

That Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are states of being is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines what has traditionally been called "the last things". Many will dispute how we get to these states or even the existence of any or all.

My point was: "most people are not ready for immediate entry into the state of heaven (I include myself)."

The symbolism of the throne of judgement (white or otherwise) and just how we are judged and when, is an argument for some Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who make a great deal of the subject in the so-called pre- and post-tribulation debates.

I have heard just about all variations of these debates (along with a lot of unbiblical, untheological language) and am pleased to leave it with the mercy of God which, fortunately, far surpasses ours.

I'll take my lumps with a lot of believers in the hereafter as God brings us, by grace and whatever process, to the promised state known as the beatific vision. Then, as the Apostle Paul says, we shall see "face to face".